Jewish China
- Thread starter fortyseven
- Start date
I wonder if the Khazar-style scenario would work. Say, widespread contact of Europe with China happens much sooner, maybe in VIIth-IXth centuries or so. Due to the butterflies that bringing China into a sphere of European politics of the time and such would create, say by XIVth or XVth century China is a battleground where Catholic Christians, Orthodox Christians, and Muslims of both Shi'a and Sunni persuasion wage war, with much of China in disarray, and several warring dynasties struggling for power.
In a chaos, one warlord only achieves the goal of reuniting the country. Say, Confucianism is discredited due to the inward-looking stance of Confucian rulers causing ruin for China (far-fetched, but Confucianism has to be dealt with in order to allow another major philosophy/religion to really take hold). Said warlord, distrustful of the Europeans, but not willing to return to Confucianism, converts to Judaism as the means of proclaiming not only political, but also religious independence from both Christianity and Islam. Centuries down the line, China is still officially Jewish, although their particular version of Judaism has probably diverged from the one practiced by Old World Hebrews.
The main problem with the above TL is that China is simply too large and populous to be dominated by Europeans or Arabs in the Middle Ages, before the Europeans had the technological edge to do so. In fact, if anything, China would have been more likely to dominate most European states of the Dark Ages until well into the Renaissanse, because IT had equivalent, if not even superior technology, and had better internal organization. It took industrial revolution for European nations to be able to dominate China.
Now, if, say, the contact leads to China breaking up into a number of smaller (although still rather big by European standards) states that are constantly at war with each other, at least through butterflies and whatnot, then the Chinese would be more concerned about each other than the Europeans originally, allowing the Europeans to gain a foothold in the East, and to achieve sufficient technology to become a major factor in Chinese politics.
In a chaos, one warlord only achieves the goal of reuniting the country. Say, Confucianism is discredited due to the inward-looking stance of Confucian rulers causing ruin for China (far-fetched, but Confucianism has to be dealt with in order to allow another major philosophy/religion to really take hold). Said warlord, distrustful of the Europeans, but not willing to return to Confucianism, converts to Judaism as the means of proclaiming not only political, but also religious independence from both Christianity and Islam. Centuries down the line, China is still officially Jewish, although their particular version of Judaism has probably diverged from the one practiced by Old World Hebrews.
The main problem with the above TL is that China is simply too large and populous to be dominated by Europeans or Arabs in the Middle Ages, before the Europeans had the technological edge to do so. In fact, if anything, China would have been more likely to dominate most European states of the Dark Ages until well into the Renaissanse, because IT had equivalent, if not even superior technology, and had better internal organization. It took industrial revolution for European nations to be able to dominate China.
Now, if, say, the contact leads to China breaking up into a number of smaller (although still rather big by European standards) states that are constantly at war with each other, at least through butterflies and whatnot, then the Chinese would be more concerned about each other than the Europeans originally, allowing the Europeans to gain a foothold in the East, and to achieve sufficient technology to become a major factor in Chinese politics.
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Leo Caesius
Banned
Actually, I think that Confucius and the Talmud would go fairly well together. Both espouse an extremely practical philosophy.
I have some facsimiles of the Torah manuscripts purchased off the Kaifung Jewish community by the Presbyterians in the 19th century. It's amazing to see Hebrew written Chinese style with a brush! These manuscripts are annotated in Mandarin and Judeo-Persian.
I have some facsimiles of the Torah manuscripts purchased off the Kaifung Jewish community by the Presbyterians in the 19th century. It's amazing to see Hebrew written Chinese style with a brush! These manuscripts are annotated in Mandarin and Judeo-Persian.
The hurdle I see with all this is post-70 AD Rabbinic Judaism, which is quite insular. We aren't talking about modern Reform of Conservative Judaism, which is more open and didn't appear until the 19th century.
I would say a PoD centering around the rebellion in Canton in 878 might be a way to go. Instead of having a large number of Jews slaughtered, they escape to form a larger community in Kaifung. Let's say the new trade expansion of Renaissance Europe reaches China in the 15th century. A Jewish physician on one of these voyages becomes engrossed by Chinese medicine and some of the advanced techniques in ancient Chinese texts. One thing leads to another and he learns about the Kaifung community, visits and brings news back to Europe. Viola, the Kaifung community is now in contact with their European cousins. My bet is that is that it becomes and financial and banking conduit through which Jewish bankers in Europe may gain an upper hand with trade in China.
I would say a PoD centering around the rebellion in Canton in 878 might be a way to go. Instead of having a large number of Jews slaughtered, they escape to form a larger community in Kaifung. Let's say the new trade expansion of Renaissance Europe reaches China in the 15th century. A Jewish physician on one of these voyages becomes engrossed by Chinese medicine and some of the advanced techniques in ancient Chinese texts. One thing leads to another and he learns about the Kaifung community, visits and brings news back to Europe. Viola, the Kaifung community is now in contact with their European cousins. My bet is that is that it becomes and financial and banking conduit through which Jewish bankers in Europe may gain an upper hand with trade in China.
Leo Caesius
Banned
Well, then, we can just dig up some Karaites. There are still a few communities of Kipchak speaking Karaites in Lithuania and the Ukraine; perhaps the Golden Horde as a whole adopts Karaism a la Khazars, conquers China, and makes Karaism the religion of the state.david3565 said:
david3565 said:
Well, maybe, maybe. The Chinese are never that religious, apart from during really chaotic periods (which the late 30s was, of course), so it may even be sort of possible. Of course, this does depend on all Jews who ever lived turning up in China, which makes this ASB. Still, all Jews then living (around fifteen million?) would be a good start. How to get them all to China, and why, is another problem, also.
NFR said:
Unless the emperor or some influential military figure converts to Judaism and they pull a Constantine. Judaism has never taught conversion-by-the-sword, but applying trade pressure and pulling some economic tricks to get their foot in the door would be entirely plausible for Chinese Jews with some political power. The real problem is figuring out how they would latch on to missionary practices.
Using the Bible as inspiration,
a, say, 16-century feudal lord, is somehow given a copy of the Torah and has an epiphany. He makes Judaism the official religion of his domain then turns outward. The message convinces some (though "Chinese characteristics" are of course retained, as they are now in Chinese Christianity) and a very single-minded army convinces others. Complete unification is not achieved but the stage is set for, say, a 19-century leader to use Judaism to take the process the next step.
It would "help" if European Christians displayed their typical enlightened attitude toward Judaism when they arrive in China, so that religious and nationalist feelings could be combined by the opposition.
a, say, 16-century feudal lord, is somehow given a copy of the Torah and has an epiphany. He makes Judaism the official religion of his domain then turns outward. The message convinces some (though "Chinese characteristics" are of course retained, as they are now in Chinese Christianity) and a very single-minded army convinces others. Complete unification is not achieved but the stage is set for, say, a 19-century leader to use Judaism to take the process the next step.
It would "help" if European Christians displayed their typical enlightened attitude toward Judaism when they arrive in China, so that religious and nationalist feelings could be combined by the opposition.
Jus Pau Hib
Banned
All other countries except Isreal deports their Jews to China and they multiply like rabbits and overrun the Chinese by numbers. 