No Sakoku Policy...a Catholic Japan

Johanus

In 1639 the Japanese shogunate imposed and enforced the sakoku policy in order to remove the colonial and religious influence of primarily Spain and Portugal, which was perceived as posing a threat to Japan's stability.



At this time there were some 500,000 Catholic converts prompting fears that Japan would go the way of other Christianized 'New World' territories under Spain and Portuguese rule.



Only the Dutch East Indies Company were able to continue restricted trading under the condition that they didn't 'inport' missionaries.


What if there was no sakoku policy? Would Japan end up like the Phillipines or South America in terms of its Christianization/colonization. How would this impact upon Spainsh and Portuguese influence in Asia?



In this AH could Japan feasibly fall into the possession of the US during Spanish-American War?


Where would it stand in relation to China before and after the communist takeover?



Justa thought! :D
 

Tyr

The Gunrunner Rimbaud said:
I've posted before why Catholic Japan is ASB territory. I'm not gonna repeat it for the the fifth time.
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I've not seen this. Sounds interesting. 500,000 converts is a large number and the old religion was tyed into the established power order. A argument could be made.
 

BrotherToAll

A large Catholic minority is an a possibility maybe 30% to 40% at most but I don't see a Catholic majority, its possible but it would require more than an open Japan......maybe a Spanish invasion?
 

Seryozha1987

A lot of Japan's involvement in WWII was closely tied to the Meiji restoration. If you have a predominantly Catholic Japan (as I'm sure OP is asking about), the Meiji restoration does not happen. Without the Meiji, you don't get a Japanese Empire. The closest thing you get is a Japanese puppet to Spain or Portugal that furthers Spanish/Portuguese interests in China. You do NOT get Japan creating the state of Manchukuo. Korea more than likely gets pressured, but not invaded. Japan is probably independent by WWII anyway, but you do not get a Japanese Empire. Japan is not in WWII and Nagasaki and Hiroshima do not happen.
 

Superftagn

Actually an independent 20th century ex-Spanish Puppet Japan that never went through Showa militarism/nationalism/fascism sounds pretty good...
 

Johanus

At the time of POD, Japan was still technologically up to date with the west in terms of things like mathematics etc. They also were able to gain western advancements via the Dutch who continued trading.

You could argue that Japan was able to maintain its cultural integrity whilst picking and choosing from what the West had to offer via the Dutch and other indirect trading partners. However, with the advent of Commodore Perry opening things up and the Industrial Rev, Japan was clearly set on a 'collision course' with the West.

Clearly a Christianized Japan that was colonized by Spain (then fell to the US during the Spanish-American War) may have saved it from the disaster of WW2 whilst creating alot interesting possibilities in Asia! For example, extension of western imperial interests in Asia (Remember, no Jap-Russian War, no Pearl Harbour, no fall of Singapore etc). Hmmm...:rolleyes:
 
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BrotherToAll

I just had a silly idea, fuse Catholicism with Bushido taking the most radical elements of both and forge it into a warrior mentality. What do you get? Imagine hordes of well armed and well trained radical Catholic Japanese soldiers infused with a religious warrior concept, so zelous and devoted to their religious beliefs and their beliefs of honor and duty that it borders on the psychotic.
 
Dan1988

Dan1988

BrotherToAll said:
I just had a silly idea, fuse Catholicism with Bushido taking the most radical elements of both and forge it into a warrior mentality. What do you get? Imagine hordes of well armed and well trained radical Catholic Japanese soldiers infused with a religious warrior concept, so zelous and devoted to their religious beliefs and their beliefs of honor and duty that it borders on the psychotic.
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THAT would be freaky. :eek:
 

I Guangxu

The problem that Christianity always had in Japan was that, unlike other imported religions/philosophies like Buddhism and Confucianism, which were able to integrate themselves with the established order, Christianity (read Catholicism in particular) explicitly rejected integration. The fact that it more or less demanded completely abandoning the long-established and firmly-entrenched Shinto/Buddhist/Confucian Japanese culture made it a hard sell, especially with the precedent of other religions integrating themselves. Obviously this case can be overstated, as it has been established that sizable number of Japanese Christians existed. However, the vast majority of these were concentrated in port cities with particularly strong European presence, and success at proselytizing beyond these relative strongholds tended to be anemic. You also have to develop a scenario in which the bakufu will not view Christianity as a threat, which would probably have to involve, in one large part, doing something about the Shimabara Uprising.
 

BrotherToAll

I said:
The problem that Christianity always had in Japan was that, unlike other imported religions/philosophies like Buddhism and Confucianism, which were able to integrate themselves with the established order, Christianity (read Catholicism in particular) explicitly rejected integration. The fact that it more or less demanded completely abandoning the long-established and firmly-entrenched Shinto/Buddhist/Confucian Japanese culture made it a hard sell, especially with the precedent of other religions integrating themselves. Obviously this case can be overstated, as it has been established that sizable number of Japanese Christians existed. However, the vast majority of these were concentrated in port cities with particularly strong European presence, and success at proselytizing beyond these relative strongholds tended to be anemic. You also have to develop a scenario in which the bakufu will not view Christianity as a threat, which would probably have to involve, in one large part, doing something about the Shimabara Uprising.
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If we have a more open Japan in which Christianity is not surpressed could we prevent the uprising from ever occuring? If we can prevent the opression and over taxation thats a huge part of the issue taken care of.

I once read that the Spanish planned on invading Japan with a sizeable fleet and army, I don't remeber the specifics but a priest who was supposed to play a major role in the invasion died so they called it off, what if he lived longer and the Spanish invaded Japan to free opressed Catholics? Mind you I need to read more on this but I'm sure I got it kinda sorta right.
 

Johanus

BrotherToAll said:
I just had a silly idea, fuse Catholicism with Bushido taking the most radical elements of both and forge it into a warrior mentality. What do you get? Imagine hordes of well armed and well trained radical Catholic Japanese soldiers infused with a religious warrior concept, so zelous and devoted to their religious beliefs and their beliefs of honor and duty that it borders on the psychotic.
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Kinda like the Teutonic Knights of Asia!
 

Neroon

Banned
Not at all ASB IMO. Sengoku Jidai was a chaotic enough peroid for anything to happen. How many would consider a peasent seizing power to be ASB in a TL where there was no Hideyoshi?
My idea on how a Catholic Japan could come about: A Daimyo who converted wins out during Sengoku Jidai. Even if he did only convert nominally to help with arms imports and the like it´ll stay legal and and "trickle-down".
 

Derek Jackson

Have not Christians, including Catholics, found ways to incorporating and maniplulating aspects of local cultures to their own greatler Glory?
 
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