Historical "good guys"

[basileus]

I repost zoomar's poll with the option, so we can have a look at the results

Personally I have no doubts the USA will win

[Hymie Goldberg]

People need to put other or none of the above in thier polls.


I say the Catholic Church was, is, and always shall be the greatest force of goodness in history.

The Catholic Church has certainly educated, cured, aided, fed, clothed more destitute and disenfranchised people than any of the above choices. I doubt anyone would attempt to argue this.

PS--Before the flames start--The Spanish Inquisition was political, run by the Spanish gov't, not by the Church.

Before you talk about the Spanish priests burning the Mesoamerican literature, note that those were the the actions of individuals. Official Church policy has never approved of destroying cultural patterns. The Spanish Priests in America took thier orders from the Spanish Crown, not Rome.

[Grey Wolf]

In the end I went for modern European social democracy as much of what I admire about Britain has a lot in common with this, rather than with the more imperialistic elements of the empire. Of course, the British Empire did a lot to spread the ideas of democratic governance in a liberal democratic system around the world, so certainly cannot be ignored for that. Its laws also underlie the civic laws of a large number of other states, including the USA and its justice and legal system is admired the world over. Its efforts against the slave trade and its policing of the seas may have had some unfortunate spin-offs, but are certainly not to be condemned out of hand.

However, in terms of advancing forward into the modern society we have now, social democratic tradition as epitomised by pensions, health and education provision and the empowerment of communities and organisations of ordinary people cannot be under-estimated.

Grey Wolf

[NapoleonXIV]

The really sad thing is how many of these might reasonably go on the villain's list as well vs how many of the villains are unmistakable. I suppose that goes to prove Augustine's notion of evil or the old adage, "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

[Tyr]

I say Britain for certain, sure I'm biased but I do genually believe it is so.
The catholics were far from good imo, I'm not a fan of religion and the catholic church itself is not a good thing- there may be some members of it which are very good people though the actual organisation...

[G.Bone]

Hmmm...the Roman-Grecio civ is winning..

[zoomar]

I voted for the British Empire myself, although early Christianity, the USA, and Social Democracy are also high in my books. All of the options I listed were all societies which on balance I believe have been "good" for humanity in general. As a religious person, the one thing which kept me from putting European Social Democracy first is the strongly secularist nature of Europe today - which leads to too many "greys" and not enough "blacks" and "whites" in how modern Europe looks at the world. I know others will argue with this.

[paladine]

all of those people who voted for the US, i guess i shouldnt be surprised after seeing the same opionion expressed over and over agian.

1: The US is the only country i can think of which, not just defends its current governments actions, but defends the actions of every past government, in fact it tries to give the impression "in the entire history of its existance our great nation has NEVER done ANYTHING wrong" in fact it would probably take me over an hour to think of more than one or two exceptions, i had to dig long and hard through history books, i used to be caught up in the patriotism, untill i discovered more and more things,no-one knew about, more and more things that our country had done wrong. some it even twisted to make "herioc episodes", the VERY many teqniques to circumvent election, failsafes included built into the constitution.

in EVERY war where we've had planes with bombs we've bombed hospitals as primary targets-as one example, if you want more just reply i could write a book of 500+ pages of the things America has covered up and done wrong.


I do agree that with the british empire though and-besides america-i think america is the only black spot with alot of votes that i see there. with cristianity it realy depends on how earlyu, the church got ugly and started persecuting mighty fast.

[paladine]

my mistake didnt see the "prior to its adoption" clause, anyway it was okay before that, but then again, it wasnt much of a historical force before that either.

[paladine]

if a nation doesnt go secular, than your chances of persecution at some point in time are well over 60%, look over it

[hammo1j]

I voted USA for its constitution. It was a shame they didn't put something in there outlawing racism, which caused the US so much trouble, but they got the bit right about making sure the power of the state never became too strong.

[carlton_bach]

Folks, this needs to be a multi-option poll. with a Likert scale.

[Wendell]

1. British Empire
2. United States of America
3. Early Christianity, as it was more Judaic
4. Claasical Greece

[Tielhard]

Why no Socialists, Bolsheviks or Communards to vote for? Without at least an other box I contend this poll is a subversion of the democratic principles often espoused on this board!

[basileus]

Originally Posted by Tielhard

Why no Socialists, Bolsheviks or Communards to vote for? Without at least an other box I contend this poll is a subversion of the democratic principles often espoused on this board!

Because by now they are in the sewers of history, just like they deserved (I mean Stalism, Maoism, pol Pot, Kim Il-Sung etc.). One day also the USA of today will follow, but we won't live to see this. For Socialism you have the Scandivnavian Social Democracies; arent' they enogh for you?

[Superdude]

I voted USA because the USA kicks ass.

[LordKalvan]

It might be argued that the oppressions and deaths committed in the name of "true socialism" have mostly been a typical trait of young regimes, and that these would have improved with time (as PRC is doing, btw).
By the same token. all religions (and in particular the catolic faith) should be disqualified, on the basis of the enormous number of men and women killed to prove a theological point. Even nowadays, there are strong resurgencies of fundamentalism (and crusading ideals) in both the Christian and the islamic faith.

OTOH, for the purpose of a poll, which must be simplified to a maximum, I will say that socialdemocracy (defined as Northern European brand) is good enough for me.

[Tielhard]

Superdude: "I voted USA because the USA kicks ass."

Kwel!

I always think that any super power able to beat the crap out of a small donkey should be voted "history's good guys"!

[Hendryk]

We should be wary of the notion of "historical good guys", especially as the poll puts on an equal footing actual countries, abstract political ideologies and even religions. It seems there's a lot of wishful thinking and just plain tautology at work here.
For example, including Christianity but only prior to its adoption as state religion seems custom-made for the forum's Protestants.
Another example is "Confucian China". Take my word for it, it's as vague a concept as "Christian Western civilization". Does one mean the actual Confucian canon, the Confucian ethos that is part and parcel of East Asian civilizations whether they call it by that name or not, or the use (itself subject to historical change) of Confucianism as a state ideology by Imperial China?
Besides, how does one define a "good guy" in the first place?

[LordKalvan]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

Besides, how does one define a "good guy" in the first place?

that's easy: a good guy is one of mine