Muslims win at Tours

[Nicole]

I've started a short timeline based off a Muslim victory at Tours. How does it look?

732 - The Battle of Tours. Muslims stream into Aquitaine.
734 - The Battle of Soissons. The Neustrian knights are defeated by the Islamic army, and Neustria is eventually annexed.
735 - Battle of Reims. The Muslim onslaught is finally stopped, however, the armies of the Caliphate have Aquitanie and Neustria, leaving Brittany a Christian (Briton) enclave in Muslim France.
736-750 - Widespread conversion and Arab settlement in Aquitanie and Neustria.
750 - The Austrasians attempt an invasion of Neustria, which suceeds in regaining a region on the border, called the Neustrian March. Later in the year, the Umayyad Caliphate in Damascus falls, and the Caliph, along with a number of Loyalists, flee to the European Provinces, making a capital at Cordoba.
751 - The Byzantine Exarchate of Italy is lost to the Lombards.
755 - The Caliph of Cordoba decides to wipe out the Christian kingdoms of Brittany and Asturias. The campaign in Asturias was effective. The Campaign in Brittany did not go nearly as well, however.

[Max Sinister]

Good start. What's next?

[DominusNovus]

Perhaps the Lombards wouldn't overrun Italy. I could see a bunch of Christian powers hiding under the tunic of Constantinople, so to speak, to avoid Muslim conquest.

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by DominusNovus

Perhaps the Lombards wouldn't overrun Italy. I could see a bunch of Christian powers hiding under the tunic of Constantinople, so to speak, to avoid Muslim conquest.

Hm.. perhaps.. I don't know too much about the Lombards, but does this make sense?

750 - An Arab army, securing the borders of Muslim France, attacks a group of Lombards.

751 - The Lombards, fearing Muslim domination, request protection from the Emperor in Constantinople. The Emperor, busy in his crusades against the iconophiles, decides to extend the Exarchate to encompass Lombard lands in Italy.

Perhaps from this point, the Roman Empire can eventually reconquer Italy? Also, the lack of Papal States keeps the Pope a solely spiritual leader.

[JHPier]

There is something called the Berber Revolt. This started shortly before 750 because the Arabs kept most of the good things resulting from the conquests for themselves while letting the Berbers do most of the hard work.
It kicked off a civil war (which got mixed up as well with the surviving Umayyads setting up shop in Spain) that lasted a generation and took another generation to recover from.
This is the main reason why Muslim expansion stopped, not losing Tours.

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by JHPier

There is something called the Berber Revolt. This started shortly before 750 because the Arabs kept most of the good things resulting from the conquests for themselves while letting the Berbers do most of the hard work.
It kicked off a civil war (which got mixed up as well with the surviving Umayyads setting up shop in Spain) that lasted a generation and took another generation to recover from.
This is the main reason why Muslim expansion stopped, not losing Tours.

The battle of Tours was before the Berber Revolt. Note that I have expansion stop three years after (That seems a bit short for conquering Neustria and Aquitanie, though.. Should I spread it out?) I did not know about the Berber Revolt, but if it stopped Muslim expansion, it would still be after my height of Muslim expansion- Which is mainly western and southern France, with the exception of the Brittany peninsula. I'm thinking of moving the Battle of Reims to Troyes, which is a bit southwest of Reims itself.

[JHPier]

Originally Posted by Imajin

The battle of Tours was before the Berber Revolt. Note that I have expansion stop three years after (That seems a bit short for conquering Neustria and Aquitanie, though.. Should I spread it out?) I did not know about the Berber Revolt, but if it stopped Muslim expansion, it would still be after my height of Muslim expansion- Which is mainly western and southern France, with the exception of the Brittany peninsula. I'm thinking of moving the Battle of Reims to Troyes, which is a bit southwest of Reims itself.

Tours occurred during an Arab raid. Conquering means reducing Gaul's cities, which will take some time. They'll still be at the Loire, I think, by 750.

[MerryPrankster]

I believe the Emir of Islamic Spain died at Tours. Did his death have anything to do with the Berber Revolt?

[Cockroach]

A few interesting websites related to it:
http://www.deremilitari.org/RESOURCE...ES/watson2.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
It is however worthwhile noting that the battle is now usually reguarded as a clash between a large Islamic raiding party and Frankish infantry rather than a concerted invasion attempt by Islam. So perhaps it would be better to rework the start of the TL so we see a slow creep of Islam (as a mixture of immigration, boarder skirmishes and the occasional occupation of a town after a particularly sucessful raid) rather than the conquest of all of France in a few years.

[Nicole]

Hm.. Judging by the posts here..

732 - The Battle of Tours results in an Arab victory. Christian efforts to stop the Arabs are severly hampered.

735 - Bordeaux, capital of Aquitanie, is raided and sacked.

738 - The First Battle of Toulouse results in a Christian victory.

739 - The Battle of Lyon. In a hard fight, and despite attempts from the Toulouse veterans to help the city, it falls to Arabs, who cement control of much of the Southern Rhone.

740 - The Second Battle of Toulouse. With many of the cities defenders killed at Lyon, and the Arabs receiving reinforcements, the city falls to the Muslim.

741-742 - The Seige and Battle of Limoges. Considered the end of resistance south of the Loire, Christian knights fleeing Toulouse and Lyon descended on the city. Muslim armies put the city under seige, and it holds up. However, the city gates give out, and armies stream into the city. However, securing Gaul will take time, and much of the Caliphate military will be tied up.

744 - Berbers in North Africa erupt into revolt against the Arabist Ummayad Caliphs. The Abbasids take advantage of this to promote their claims to the Caliphate.

745 - The Ummayyad Caliph is forced to flee Damascus, along with much of the Ummayyads. Those left behind are killed. Feeling North Africa is mainly unsafe, he ends up in Cordoba. Meanwhile, the Abbasids proclaim a new caliphate in Baghdad.

748 - End of major battles in southern Gaul. Al-Firanja (the area was previously part of the Frankish Kingdom), the Muslim section of Gaul, stretches from the Loire to the Pyrennes to the Rhone.

749 - Arabs attack Christian Avignon, a holdout city in Firanja. The battle does little to Firanja, but a group of Lombards near the city flee to the Lombard king, and warn him against the Arabs.

750 - Aistulf, new King of Lombards, decides that he will defeat the Arabs. The Battle of Avignon, however, is a disaster for Aistulf, who is killed. Lombards flee the area. The defenders of Avignon do not persue them.

751 - The Lombards, kingless (assuming either Aistulfs heir was too young or died at Avignon) and fearing Arab retribution, decide to request help from the Exarch in Ravenna. Late in 751, the Exarchate of Ravenna incorporated much of the Lombard lands.

[DominusNovus]

Nice. Lombards established as foederates of the Byzantines. I'm really interested in seeing this continued further. Anything I can do to help, just ask.

[Midgard]

Originally Posted by DominusNovus

Nice. Lombards established as foederates of the Byzantines. I'm really interested in seeing this continued further. Anything I can do to help, just ask.

This sounds interesting, considering it is prior to the time of Charlemagne, could we see a true Western Empire? With Byzantium still considered the most powerful European nation at the time, able to survive against the Arab onslaught (which, if Tours went the other way, no other nation could make a claim of), there might be an increased desire in the West to ally, or even admit themselves as vassals of Byzantium in return for protection against the Arab conquest. Much of it would, however, depend on what happens in Italy, and how effectively (or not) Byzantium could project its power beyond its power base in Anatolia.

[Hendryk]

Originally Posted by Imajin

732 - The Battle of Tours results in an Arab victory. Christian efforts to stop the Arabs are severly hampered.

Interesting idea. Incidentally, Tours is where I live.

[Lysander]

There seems to be strong wave of opinion that the arab attack that ended in the battle of Tours was more a raid than anything else and that the arabs/muslems had reached their hightide in the west.

What perhaps would be more interesting would be a potential fall of Constantinopole during that historic period (it was put under siege twice i think). That would give the arabs a more direct route into europe. Also the main block to arab expansion into eastern europe for the next 500 years would be gone.

[Nicole]

I know that Tours was more of a raid, my timeline has it and later attacks expanding to Muslim rule on the Loire.. Perhaps not the most plausible thing, but you go with the POD you have, not the POD you may wish to have at a later time (Ignoring the fact that I could have chosen a different pod, and perhaps the Constantinople POD would be better... But I'm a Francophobe Byzantophile, so this POD works better for me )

Alright, going with the scenario I posted, does this make sense? Basically, the Duchy of Aquitanie has been wiped out, and Neustria and Burgundy haven't done so well, either.. Perhaps Austrasia, relatively unhurt by Arab attacks, though perhaps it send soldiers to defend the other regions, takes leadership over the Frankish Kingdom, perhaps taking over Neustria and Burgundy?
Also, in Italy, Spoleto and Benevento remain independent of Roman control. Bavaria is a rising power in Southern Germany, and Saxony is rising in Northern Germany, with Bohemia, Thuringia and the Sorbs in between. Thuringia and Bohemia seem to be developing into states around this time, but what about the Sorbs? I can't find too much information on them at this time. Could a Sorbian state form?

By the way, this is the map I'm looking at:
http://www.euratlas.com/time/nw0700.htm

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by Imajin

I know that Tours was more of a raid, my timeline has it and later attacks expanding to Muslim rule on the Loire.. Perhaps not the most plausible thing, but you go with the POD you have, not the POD you may wish to have at a later time (Ignoring the fact that I could have chosen a different pod, and perhaps the Constantinople POD would be better... But I'm a Francophobe Byzantophile, so this POD works better for me )

Alright, going with the scenario I posted, does this make sense? Basically, the Duchy of Aquitanie has been wiped out, and Neustria and Burgundy haven't done so well, either.. Perhaps Austrasia, relatively unhurt by Arab attacks, though perhaps it send soldiers to defend the other regions, takes leadership over the Frankish Kingdom, perhaps taking over Neustria and Burgundy?
Also, in Italy, Spoleto and Benevento remain independent of Roman control. Bavaria is a rising power in Southern Germany, and Saxony is rising in Northern Germany, with Bohemia, Thuringia and the Sorbs in between. Thuringia and Bohemia seem to be developing into states around this time, but what about the Sorbs? I can't find too much information on them at this time. Could a Sorbian state form?

This is about the time of the legndary Slavic state formed by an ambitious Frankish merchant whose name I remembered a minute ago. May not have happened, but it makes a way cool 'The Man Who Would Be King' story. There is no reason to assume the Sorbs couldn't form a state if left to their own devices. It would most likely be a tribal state organised around a warrior semi-nobility, and quite possibly pagan, but it would be possible.

Now, with the Western Med a Muslim lake and the Frankish armies gamely struggling to hold back the Infidel on the Garonne - no make that Seine - I mean Oise - would a Muslim commander be interested in them as either allies or potential converts? It may be a bit early, but the Saxons sure had no use for Christianity and by 780 (OTL) they would most likely have taken on any faith if it meant not converting to the Franks'. Plus, if you're thinking geostrategy the Bavarians and Alamans would make valuable allies in the war against the Exarchate.

New Muslims in the north, orthodox Greeks with little time for petty schismatics in the east - the Catholic church is right royally b***ered, I'd say. I already like it Now, can you do something about the Anglo-Saxon missionaries?

[Nicole]

757 - Austrasia begins a series of wars with a weakened Neustria.

759 - Despite Neustria's weakened state, it had managed to fight well, and the reunited Frankish Kingdom is exhausted. The Caliph in Cordoba, realizing this, calls for plans to attack Francia to be drawn up. The commanders decide to look to the pagan tribes around Francia for conversions and alliances.

761 - The Danes slaughter a group of Frankish missionaries in the name of Thor. The Franks instead decide to focus their missionaries on converting the remaining pagans in Bavaria and beyond.

762 - Emissaries from Cordoba reach the Saxons. They immediately attempt to convert the Saxons. The Saxon king is impressed by the attempts, and eventually in 764 agrees to convert, and attack the Frankish Kingdom. However, pagan worship in Saxony will survive among the rural towns.

764 - Late this year, organized armies from Firanja and Saxon raiders begin attacks on the Frankish Kingdom. The Frankish Kingdom has only began to recover from the Austrasian-Neustrian War, yet still manages to fight well.

765 - Emissaries from Cordoba eventually contact the Danes. They are slaughtered in the name of Thor.

766 - Viking raids from Denmark begin.

769 - The Caliphate of Cordoba and the Kingdom of Saxons give up on their attacks on the Frankish Kingdom. They have managed to expand their boundaries, but not by much.

770 - One Sorbian leader, Yavos, manages to unite the Sorbian tribes under his control, forming the beginning of the Kingdom of Sorbia.

-----

Yavos is just a name I completely made up. Anyone know about Sorbian names in this time period? Also, I'm pretty sure England was converted by this time.. So no hopes for a pagan England. Maybe we can keep Denmark pagan, though...

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by Imajin

762 - Emissaries from Cordoba reach the Saxons. They immediately attempt to convert the Saxons. The Saxon king is impressed by the attempts, and eventually in 764 agrees to convert, and attack the Frankish Kingdom. However, pagan worship in Saxony will survive among the rural towns.

Mibnor detail: The saxons didn't have kings. That was one reason they were so hard to convert. They had something that was probably an aristocratic society in which decisionmaking was by 'directed consent'. Their leaders were 'duces' or 'satrapes' (Frankish chronicler's phrases, we have no clue what they called them) elected annually at the Saxon gathering at Markloh. Probably something vaguely similar to the Icelandic Althing.

[Nicole]

Hmm.. how about..

762 - Emissaries from Cordoba reach the Saxons. They immediately attempt to convert the Saxons. The Saxon duces are impressed by the attempts, and, with the support of the people, eventually in 764 agrees to convert, and attack the Frankish Kingdom. However, pagan worship in Saxony will survive among some of the rural towns.

769 - The Caliphate of Cordoba and the Saxon Commonwealth give up on their attacks on the Frankish Kingdom. They have managed to expand their boundaries, but not by much.

I'm calling the Saxon state the Saxon Commonwealth merely because you compared the Saxon government to the Icelandic Althing, and we call the early Icelandic Althing-ruled government the Icelandic Commonwealth.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by carlton_bach

Mibnor detail: The saxons didn't have kings. That was one reason they were so hard to convert. They had something that was probably an aristocratic society in which decisionmaking was by 'directed consent'. Their leaders were 'duces' or 'satrapes' (Frankish chronicler's phrases, we have no clue what they called them) elected annually at the Saxon gathering at Markloh. Probably something vaguely similar to the Icelandic Althing.

I have trouble seeing Saxons give up pork and booze, though.