No Czech national revival

What if the Czech language and culture hadn't had a revival during the 19th century and the Czech people continued on with becoming a Germanized people.

Amongst other in this timeline Josef Jungmann doesn't publish his dictionary of the Czech language which he borrowed several words from other Slavic languages and even created a few.

History progresses about the same outside of the Czech lands until after the first World War.

What happens after WWI to Bohemia and Moravia?

NomadicSky said:

What if the Czech language and culture hadn't had a revival during the 19th century and the Czech people continued on with becoming a Germanized people.

Amongst other in this timeline Josef Jungmann doesn't publish his dictionary of the Czech language which he borrowed several words from other Slavic languages and even created a few.

History progresses about the same outside of the Czech lands until after the first World War.

What happens after WWI to Bohemia and Moravia?

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Conceptions of Greater Germany would without a doubt include all of the Czech lands in such a timeline.

Aye, pretty much. I can't say much, but perhaps the Czech past will be seen in a local, romantic light in the vein of France viewing themselves as descendants of the Gauls?

Wendell said:

Conceptions of Greater Germany would without a doubt include all of the Czech lands in such a timeline.

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Not necessarily. Look at Ireland. There never was a Gaelic Revival, but even while speaking English, the Irish always felt themselves to be different from the Brits.

Susano said:

Not necessarily. Look at Ireland. There never was a Gaelic Revival, but even while speaking English, the Irish always felt themselves to be different from the Brits.

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The relationship between the British and the Irish was much, much more antagonistic down the centuries than the one one between the Czech and the Germans previously to the 19th Century. The Irish were an oppressed and downtrodden minority, whileas Bohemia was an important member state of the HRE.

General Zod said:

The relationship between the British and the Irish was much, much more antagonistic down the centuries than the one one between the Czech and the Germans previously to the 19th Century. The Irish were an oppressed and downtrodden minority, whileas Bohemia was an important member state of the HRE.

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Yesss, but there certainly had been Czech-German national conflicts before. Often about language, particulary about language used in the University of Prague. And lets not forget the Hussite Wars, they had a definite national slant. So, teh Czechs maybe werent opressed, but there was a level of antigony.

Not that I have anything against a German identity Bohemia . Or think it entirely unlikely. Its just not at all a given.

It's going to have radicale consequenses, especially on the Austrian Empires history, in OTL Germans made up 25% of the empire population, while Czech made up 15%. Even if all Czechs isn't assimilated by the Germans, the fact that Bohemia, Moravia and Austrian Silesia become smajority German will means that the change from potential areas of ethnic rebellion, to German heartland and will mean that the Germans de facto make up 40% of the Empire. Austria will become a lot more stable, but I'm not sure it can avoid the ethnic rebellions in Hungary and Lombard or the defeat by the Prussian and Italian hands, so we will likely end up with Austria-Hungary anyway.
But after the German unification the radicale changes truely happens, without Czechs to kickstart Slovakian nationalism, Slovaks will be in a even worse position against the Hungarian and will likely be somewhat assimilated, with a two strong dominating ethnicities AH will like become a lot more stable and less a victim of Pan-Slavism. Hungary will likely adopt the same policy of assimilation, while Austria will likely outside Austrian Germany (the part of Austria which were member of the German confederation) adopt the relative tolerant practices of Cisleithania.

Valdemar II said:

It's going to have radicale consequenses, especially on the Austrian Empires history, in OTL Germans made up 25% of the empire population, while Czech made up 15%. Even if all Czechs isn't assimilated by the Germans, the fact that Bohemia, Moravia and Austrian Silesia become smajority German will means that the change from potential areas of ethnic rebellion, to German heartland and will mean that the Germans de facto make up 40% of the Empire. Austria will become a lot more stable, but I'm not sure it can avoid the ethnic rebellions in Hungary and Lombard or the defeat by the Prussian and Italian hands, so we will likely end up with Austria-Hungary anyway.
But after the German unification the radicale changes truely happens, without Czechs to kickstart Slovakian nationalism, Slovaks will be in a even worse position against the Hungarian and will likely be somewhat assimilated, with a two strong dominating ethnicities AH will like become a lot more stable and less a victim of Pan-Slavism. Hungary will likely adopt the same policy of assimilation, while Austria will likely outside Austrian Germany (the part of Austria which were member of the German confederation) adopt the relative tolerant practices of Cisleithania.

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Very true. But alternatively, the presence of all those additional Germans could well mean the victory of vthe German national-liberal movement in the revolution of 1848 and see the emergence of an Austrian-led Greater German Empire.

What happened to the Czechs? Did they all commit suicide, or something?

Edit: That sounded snippier than I meant, but how this happens does matter...

NomadicSky said:

What if the Czech language and culture hadn't had a revival during the 19th century and the Czech people continued on with becoming a Germanized people.

Amongst other in this timeline Josef Jungmann doesn't publish his dictionary of the Czech language which he borrowed several words from other Slavic languages and even created a few.

History progresses about the same outside of the Czech lands until after the first World War.

What happens after WWI to Bohemia and Moravia?

Click to expand...

So the Czech people become totally separated from the rest of the (Eastern) Europe, where all kinds of Nationalism skyrocketed during the 19th century? Sorry, but this isn't really possible.

General Zod said:

Very true. But alternatively, the presence of all those additional Germans could well mean the victory of vthe German national-liberal movement in the revolution of 1848 and see the emergence of an Austrian-led Greater German Empire.

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Indeed, if the the Czechs largely all become Bohemians (for lack of a better term), then 1848 goes differently(both the German National-Liberal one, and the revolutions with in the Austrian Empire). Without Bohemia in revolt, it is unlikely, Vienna would revolt, and Windischgrätz would be able to focus on Hungary. I feel like between Windischgrätz and Josip Jelačić Hungary could probably be supressed without the Russians, and Croatia would likely be much better off, receiving some form of greater autonomy (from the Hungarians) as a reward from the Emperor, who would likely still be Franz Joseph (maybe as Franz II).

Anyone care to speculate further on what this would do to the Frankfurt Assembly?

To get rid of Czech nationalism, you'd probably have to eliminate Jan Hus and the Hussite wars. That was the origin of the first Czech literature and probably of at least Bohemian cultural identity, if not Czech national identity. Failing that, a different outcome of the 30 yrs war might have reduced Czech national identity; especially if a German ruler gains the throne without alienating the nobility, and still suppressing the utraquists. Still, there will be a substantial (peasant) Czech culture which would probably be fertile ground for later nationalists.

I don't think changing or removing 19th century Czech nationalists will have much effect, unless nationalism in general is somehow removed.

In a way, Germanization and Magyarization in Bohemia-Moravia-Silesia and Slovakia respectively were an attempt to turn back the clock. Literature and dictionaries in Czech, Slovak, and Czecho-Slovak(think Serbo-Croatian) were developed just as the ruling culture attempted to eliminate the minority cultures.

Again, look at Slovakia. Slovakia had a smaller population, lower literacy rates, fewer large towns or cities, no revolts as dramatic as the Hussite rebellion and 30 yrs war, and was intentionally Magyarized through the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries. Slovak national identity still could not be suppressed. Nations that have a large base are extremely hard to suppress.

Faeelin said:

What happened to the Czechs? Did they all commit suicide, or something?

Edit: That sounded snippier than I meant, but how this happens does matter...

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The same thing which happen to the Sorbs, Czech is still spoken by the rural population, but most urban areas speak German and while the Czech speakers become bilingual, the German speakers become monolingual. So business, intellectual debate and government is dealt with in German and schools and newspaper is in German, and Czech become limited to the private sphere*.

*Much as you seen with most local European dialects, but also entire languages in some European countries.

Prem_Rack said:

So the Czech people become totally separated from the rest of the (Eastern) Europe, where all kinds of Nationalism skyrocketed during the 19th century? Sorry, but this isn't really possible.

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Not all groups nationalism succesful skyrocketed, Obotrites, Cours, Sorbs, Kashubians, Irish Gaelic, Britons, Galicians, Frisians and to some point the Welsh all their attempts at 19th century nationalism failed.

ImperialVienna said:

Indeed, if the the Czechs largely all become Bohemians (for lack of a better term), then 1848 goes differently(both the German National-Liberal one, and the revolutions with in the Austrian Empire). Without Bohemia in revolt, it is unlikely, Vienna would revolt, and Windischgrätz would be able to focus on Hungary. I feel like between Windischgrätz and Josip Jelačić Hungary could probably be supressed without the Russians, and Croatia would likely be much better off, receiving some form of greater autonomy (from the Hungarians) as a reward from the Emperor, who would likely still be Franz Joseph (maybe as Franz II).

Anyone care to speculate further on what this would do to the Frankfurt Assembly?

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IF Franz Joseph is far-seeing enough to give up unitary administration for the Hapsburg lands, and make the Kingdom of Austria-Bohemia-Slovenia a personal union with the Kingdoms of Hungary, Croatia and Lombardy-Venice-Trent, the Frankfurt Assembly can easily decide to offer him the crown of the reborn German Empire. Since the Habsburg have been Emperors before, I think they would not mind as much getting the Imperial crown from a Parliament. You would see a huge Greater Germany in personal union with Gretaer Hungary emerge. Truly a reborn (but functional) HRE, and one that sooner or late might pull the rest of Italy is its orbit, if again the Habsburg are far-seering enough to give Italy autonomy. I see a war with France coming in the easly '50s, albeit a one the Empire would easily win.

Valdemar II said:

ungary will likely adopt the same policy of assimilation, while Austria will likely outside Austrian Germany (the part of Austria which were member of the German confederation) adopt the relative tolerant practices of Cisleithania.

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Hungary tried. As soon as they got domestic independance after the Ausgleich, they started a radical assimilation policy, targetting the Slovaks, Romanians and Germans in their part of the Empire. That didnt really work - it came too late. After the 1860s, nationalism already was everywhere, after all.

Faeelin said:

What happened to the Czechs? Did they all commit suicide, or something?

Edit: That sounded snippier than I meant, but how this happens does matter...

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Well, yes - similar to the mentioned Hungarian assimilation policies, the German assimilation of Bohemia has to happen early enough. It maybe doesnt need to be Jan Hus, but 18th instead of 19th century might be better...

Susano said:

Hungary tried. As soon as they got domestic independance after the Ausgleich, they started a radical assimilation policy, targetting the Slovaks, Romanians and Germans in their part of the Empire. That didnt really work - it came too late. After the 1860s, nationalism already was everywhere, after all.

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Hungary will likely succed somewhat better against the Slovaks*, without Czech support to their easten brothers, but beside that they will only be as succesfull as OTL in the rest of Hungary.

Susano said:

Well, yes - similar to the mentioned Hungarian assimilation policies, the German assimilation of Bohemia has to happen early enough. It maybe doesnt need to be Jan Hus, but 18th instead of 19th century might be better...

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I agree, I have a hard time see this POD succed, but it isn't impossible, Germans just need to become in majority in Czechia and so they just need to assimilate 25% of the Czechs, and while Czech (modern) nationalism will likely still be born, if it happens 20 year later we could see the Germans succed in that.

*And even in OTL they were quite succesfull