What if the Dutch never lost New Netherland?

NomadicSky

Banned
Well not to the english anyway.
Lets say that the Dutch put up a greater fight for the region and with the help of lets say Spain not only kept New Netherland but took New England as well.
So there would be a somewhat large dutch speaking nation in North America, New York is still New Amsterdam, Boston is still called Boston but it like the rest of New Netherland is very Dutch.
Canada wasn't settled by the English at all it remained French as a result of New
Netherland.
I haven't figured in all the details but I do have a map
 

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Nicole

I think New Netherland conquering New England borders on ASB, and even if it happened, New England would be like the Quebec of this dutch state- Most likely retaining an English (Well, Anglo-Puritan most likely, people stay with the Puritan church to maintain a separate identity) section of a dutch country- Only I believe that even at this time, New England actually had a larger poulation that New Netherland.

Also, a Dutch-Spanish alliances is most likely not going to happen. After all, assuming that this is early enough for New Netherland to survive, I believe you have the intensly Catholic Habsburgs in Spain, and they arent going to ally with a Protestant nation, even to attack another Protestant nation.
 

Nicole

Well, New Amsterdam surviving isn't Implausible at all, as you could have the Dutch do a better job defending it, or perhaps an Anglo-Dutch alliance that leads England to believe the Dutch colony is no threat. The Dutch colony may find it easier to expand westward, rather than northward, to the less populated regions of French Canada (What OTL became Ontario), which the British may even support them getting (No english settlers), and maybe beyond that to Michigan.
 

Othniel

New Amsterdam yes.Along with Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine. There is no way they'll get New England though. Secondly, the French can still hold on to Qubec with a buffer colony. You'd have to do a timeline since its founding. Maybe less intress in the Far East, and more colonists and merchants landing in the Americas?
 

Nicole

Othniel said:
New Amsterdam yes.Along with Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine. There is no way they'll get New England though. Secondly, the French can still hold on to Qubec with a buffer colony. You'd have to do a timeline since its founding. Maybe less intress in the Far East, and more colonists and merchants landing in the Americas?
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Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine are all part of New England. ;)
But I see your point. Vermont was settled later than other regions, and even in OTL ended up as part of New York. Maine is also less populated, but I see the lion's share of Maine ending up in French hands, assuming France holds Acadia/Nova Scotia. If the British hold it, then it remains part of Massachusetts-Bay, perhaps with the western parts eventually ending up in Dutch hands. Assuming French Acadia+Maine, Massachusetts-Bay is less likely to annex New Plymouth (Extend the Rhode Island border east), and perhaps Connecticuit remains divided. New Hampshire will likely survive, and probably be the southern half of OTL's NH, but may have a larger coast.

Of course, if you really want a Dutch New England, then all you have to do is have the Puritans/Pilgrims go somewhere else. :D
 

NomadicSky

Banned
Something more like...

this lets say that the Dutch keep New Netherland and settle disputes with New England. The British and Dutch stay allies. The Dutch & British alliance fight together against the French which the British take most of New France and spain still gets western Louisiana, France in this timeline is allowed to keep Canada and Acadia.
Britian settles disputes with the French over New England & Acadia.
1776 the Southern colonies declare independence and establish the American Republic. New England remains loyal and has a boost in population during the American revolution. During the American revolution the Dutch stay neutral and the French aid the Americans as in our time line.
This map is of North America in 1790 the American Repulic has about the same borders as our USA did in 1790 atlantic ocean to mississippi river and south to Florida.
 

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Othniel

NomadicSky said:
this lets say that the Dutch keep New Netherland and settle disputes with New England. The British and Dutch stay allies. The Dutch & British alliance fight together against the French which the British take most of New France and spain still gets western Louisiana, France in this timeline is allowed to keep Canada and Acadia.
Britian settles disputes with the French over New England & Acadia.
1776 the Southern colonies declare independence and establish the American Republic. New England remains loyal and has a boost in population during the American revolution. During the American revolution the Dutch stay neutral and the French aid the Americans as in our time line.
This map is of North America in 1790 the American Repulic has about the same borders as our USA did in 1790 atlantic ocean to mississippi river and south to Florida.
Click to expand...
Or maybe it would go the other way around. The main point of resitance was from the Boston Area. You may have to have New England attempt a breakaway in 1774 and later have the south rebel in the 1780's. Remember that the need to breakaway seemed stronger in the north.
But if indeed do it that way it would indeed swell with loyalists, prehaps making it more loyal than Canada was in the OTL. I'm wondering how this would effect trade....
 
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NomadicSky

Banned
And more

This is the flag of the American Republic I based it's design on the North Carolina state flag.
As you can see I have two flags I can't seem to decide which would fit the nation better the one on the right or the one on the left?
 

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David S Poepoe

Banned
I think this is a fairly overly optimistic ATL given the original size of Dutch possession in North America. I think it far more likely that New Amsterdam would dominate the Hudson Valley region, but territorially probably not expand too far out of OTL metropolitan New York area. It can easily control Manhattan Island and even Long Island and spots around, but I doubt it would find the people, let alone the allies, to allow it to reach the Great Lakes.

As a 'free port' it will still become economically important, since it just sits at such a strategic point. However, as a major port of entry I would think that it would be economically tied to the English colonies by the 1700s. The influx of immigrants will probably wipe out any remaining Dutch culture, so by the late 1800s or even 1900s it wouldn't be any Quebec-like stature. The state of New York, let alone New Amsterdam, wouldn't exist, it would have another name. The city of New Amsterdam may exist as its own 'state' given the year it enters the Union. This would certainly have repercussions in the 20th century when the drive for statehood for Washington D.C. begins.
 

NomadicSky

Banned
So at most

New Netherland might look like New York did before Vermont and Pennsylvania had a slice of it.
I was thinking that if the Dutch were to encourage population to New Netherland
you could have a modern day Dutch state in North America.
The French and English still fought the French and Indian war the Dutch were allied with the English and pressed for the French to be allowed to keep Canada.
And I was thinking Canada could actually be a kingdom in this timeline something like when the republican revolution broke out in France the French Monarchy escaped to Canada and established the Kingdom of Canada.
So maybe more like this
 

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Leo Caesius

Banned
Actually, as I understand it, children in the Hudson River Valley and in Northern New Jersey were being taught out of Dutch primers well into the 19th century. As late as the 60s, there was still an enclave of Dutch speakers on the New York/New Jersey - the "Jackson Whites" - but it may be extinct now.
 

NomadicSky

Banned
well here I'd think of New Amsterdam

as a large multicultural city, but the rest of New Netherland would be dutch and maybe even still part of the Netherlands.
 

NomadicSky

Banned
I actually knew that it did

that is why on the first map I posted part of New Jersey was in the colony,
I think that the Dutch would have made a few border concessions in order to keep the colony. Maybe some land would be exchanged i.e. part of connecticut
and Massachusetts. in exchange for the southern regions of the colony
 

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JLCook

With a split like that

Between New England and the rest of the British Colonies (like Pennsylvania, and Virginia, I question as to whether or not an American Revolution would even be possible! The Colomies in New England are too small to succeed on thier own, and without being physically continuos with the other rebellious British colonies, I simply doubt that the revolution would even happen.

Also, with the Dutch Presence in Neiw Amsterdam, there would be the physical proximity of a potentially hostile European country right next door. It might be noted that the American Revolution wasn't possible until the FRENCH had been kicked out of Canada. In this TL, not only might tere still be French in Canada, there would also be Dutch on the Middle Atlantic coast.

Going by the British example of dealing with the French in Quebec, I question that Neiw Amsterdam would have been allowed to survive as late as 1775, by the British, in any case.
 

eschaton

From what I remember, much of Long Island was not part of the Dutch colony. Everything up to Nassau county was in part, but Suffolk was settled by British, with no Dutch entering, and was only added to New York later. I think it would probably be attached to CT if the Dutch kept their colony, but who knows.
 

JHPier

NomadicSky said:
I think that the Dutch would have made a few border concessions in order to keep the colony. Maybe some land would be exchanged i.e. part of connecticut
and Massachusetts. in exchange for the southern regions of the colony
Click to expand...
IMO either the English keep being friends and New Netherlands survives with its mid-17C borders, or it gets wiped off the map. New Netherlands will never survive a hostile Britain.
 

NomadicSky

Banned
Well at most could it be like Quebec

Say the british do take the colony but lets give the dutch longer to rule the colony and give it a larger dutch speaking population
then is is plausible it might be like quebec and at some later point establish a soverign state?
 
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