Pilgrims in New York

I've heard that OTL, the Pilgrims were headed for the Hudson River which was just within the territory claimed by the Virginia Company. So WI the Pilgrims had gotten there?

If i'm reading right, New Netherlands wasn't settled until 1624. Will the Pilgrims feel that they're too close to the Dutch? How will the West India Company feel about the Pilgrims being that close?

If they do stay, where do they settle? If they leave, where do they go?

Who settles New England? Do the Puritans still go to Massachusetts? Within two years of the Plymouth Colony's founding, New Hampshire and Maine were successfully settled. So can the Plymouth Company (no relation AFAIK) pull off some more successful settlements? IMO, the Dutch might be able to hold the Connecticut area. I hear they already had a fort or two in the area OTL.

If the Puritans do go elsewhere, where? Where does the majority of the Great Migration go? I hear OTL, large numbers went to Virginia and the Caribbean.

How does King Philip's War go? I'm apt to say, entirely differently as AFAIK one of the main causes was Plymouth colonists kidnapping one of a prominent native leader who then died of disease contracted whilst he was kidnapped. I hazily remember that another cause was Plymouth claiming protection over a tribe and something or other, like i said, hazy. Anyway, if the Great Migration goes elsewhere and New Netherlands holds most of Connecticut, there'll be less pressure on the Wampanoag, so they may not wish to go to war. Would that only postpone war?

Off the top of my head:

Will the Dutch still settle New Amsterdam if the Pilgrims are already there? Mightn't they go somewhere else? (And remember, the Pilgrims came to America after first settling in the Netherlands and deciding they didn't like living with the Dutch)

I suspect that once they get settled, the Pilgrims will not be leaving--unless something huge comes along. After all, descendents of the Pilgrims still live in Plymouth, Massachussets.

I was under the impression that the Puritans chose to go to Massachussets because the Pilgrims were already in the area.

In OTL, much of New England was settled by folks who were fed up with the Puritans and wanted to get away from them and find religious freedom.

I guess the simplest course of events is to say the Dutch settle New England after the Pilgrims settle the Hudson river. Undoubtedly the British will try to conquer the Dutch colony as they did successfully in OTL.

KEVP said:

Off the top of my head:

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Thanks for the response.

KEVP said:

Will the Dutch still settle New Amsterdam if the Pilgrims are already there? Mightn't they go somewhere else? (And remember, the Pilgrims came to America after first settling in the Netherlands and deciding they didn't like living with the Dutch)

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The Dutch already had forts and were trading in the area, but they didn't settle for another 4 or so years. This bit twists my mind a little because i think the Dutch wouldn't give up such a rich trading area on account of the Pilgrims, and the Pilgrims probably wouldn't give up and leave just on account of a Dutch trading post/fort.

KEVP said:

I suspect that once they get settled, the Pilgrims will not be leaving--unless something huge comes along. After all, descendents of the Pilgrims still live in Plymouth, Massachussets.

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Maybe if the area where they landed was unsuitable, they may move in the spring. After that, i'd think they wouldn't want to give up the work they put in. Voluntarily, that is. I'm thinking about the Acadians, forcefully relocated.

KEVP said:

I was under the impression that the Puritans chose to go to Massachussets because the Pilgrims were already in the area.

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Me too.

KEVP said:

In OTL, much of New England was settled by folks who were fed up with the Puritans and wanted to get away from them and find religious freedom.

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Not Maine and New Hampshire, at least the initial settlement. Even though Massachusetts ended up owning Maine later.

KEVP said:

I guess the simplest course of events is to say the Dutch settle New England after the Pilgrims settle the Hudson river. Undoubtedly the British will try to conquer the Dutch colony as they did successfully in OTL.

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Agreement. But is simplest best?

freodhoric said:

Thanks for the response.


The Dutch already had forts and were trading in the area, but they didn't settle for another 4 or so years. This bit twists my mind a little because i think the Dutch wouldn't give up such a rich trading area on account of the Pilgrims, and the Pilgrims probably wouldn't give up and leave just on account of a Dutch trading post/fort.


Maybe if the area where they landed was unsuitable, they may move in the spring. After that, i'd think they wouldn't want to give up the work they put in. Voluntarily, that is. I'm thinking about the Acadians, forcefully relocated.


Me too.


Not Maine and New Hampshire, at least the initial settlement. Even though Massachusetts ended up owning Maine later.


Agreement. But is simplest best?

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Occam's Razor simplest IS best.

The Dutch actually might not mind the Pilgrams at the mouth of the Hudson River. In OTL they had a really hard time recruiting settlers for the New Amsterdam Colony, now they have a pre-existing settler population. I think the Dutch West Indies Company will probably just strike a deal for supplies from the Pilgrams, something that would probably end up benefitting both parties.

I know that the Pilgrams were indebted to the Plymouth Company, but I'm sure that supplying the Dutch would be (for as long as the Dutch maintain control of major West Indian and Brazilian territory) profitable for the Company.

Boston might still be founded in its OTL place by Winthrop's Fleet, since Massachusetts Bay is still the fishing mecca that is was OTL. The presence of the Puritans, not the Pilgrams, was what really sparked most of the Indian Wars in New England, since the Puritans made up a far larger percentage of the population. If Winthrop's Fleet ends up settling closer to the Pilgrams, then Boston is founded at OTL's New Haven, at the mouth of the Connecticut River. In that case, OTL's Boston probably gets founded as one of colonies that split from the harshly Puritan *Boston at New Haven.

The Plymouth Colony being at the mouth of the Hudson River is probably going to involve the English in North America with the politics of the Iroquois-speaking peoples, and thus the French, much sooner than OTL. If the Hudson River Valley gets settled by English colonists, then war could result between the English and the Iroquois. The Purtians and Pilgrams of OTL were rather uninterested in large-scale trading operations with the natives, and much more interested in farming. Maybe *King Philip's War is fought as a part of the Anglo-French Wars, with the English settlers facing off against the French-allied Iroquois.

With *Boston at OTL's New Haven the whole pattern of settlement is going to be changed, though the combatant tribes in *King Philip's War probably don't change all that much.

One big POD could be that settlement in New England overall ends up proceeding more quickly- in OTL after King Philip's War the colonists had sustained enough casualities that further settlement was halted for a generation. With the pressing in of settlers from the Connecticut River Valley on one side and Cape Cod/Boston/Rhode Island on the other the *King Philip's War would serve to clear the territory between the colonies. Rather than pressing west as OTL, the colonist press north. The Merrimack River Valley ends up as the major frontier of 18th century New England, rather than the Connecticut River Valley.