The Race's MilTech level

[Matt]

I thought there was a long dead thread on this, but I guess I was wrong. I'm intersted in writing a Cold War Era/Race invasion TL(with ASBs to get ride of those pesky nukes). What's the general concensious of their military capibilites, and the size of the Invasion Fleet?

For their land forces, I've always got the impression that it's similar to the early 80s Soviets.

Their air forces are intersting. I think the Killercraft are stated to be of a swing-wing, single engine, multi-purpose aircraft. I don't think they're can go LEO, instead depending on special purpose "motherships" for that.

anythoughts?

[Othniel]

Spacewise they'd beat us...nukes could hit every major city. But I remeber a mention of hovertanks in the books. That means airfoil in the least, and antigrav at most.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Othniel

Spacewise they'd beat us...nukes could hit every major city. But I remeber a mention of hovertanks in the books. That means airfoil in the least, and antigrav at most.

That's part of the probelm with a post-ww2 Race operation. Any latter then that, those odd Tosevite's have already devolped nukes, and should probably be "cleansed" before they're a threat. Any sooner, we lack the means to seriously fight back. Hell, by the time the 60s roll around the EMP bursts they set off in the begining of the WorldWar series well be a big probelm, probably setting off a war between the US and the USSR anyway. I thinking of either letting the Race forget it's nuke back Home, or ASBs turning all fissonible material in warheads into lead or some. Spacewise, there wouldn't even bet much of a fight right now, even though I think cutting edge US military is better equiped then them.

[Othniel]

I remeber reading currently about Russian spacecraft that is able to dogde missles.But say we set this during the Cuban Missle Crisis...It might get intersting quick. Of corse the 5-way power vs. a two way puts up less conflict with the Race. In fact I think that the Soviets and the US would both end up with more land than they have now because of the oppertunity the Race presents them. Maybe even a Union of goverments...

[Matt]

That's actually the time period I'm envisioning, that the Race show's up at the height of the crisis. I think it's fairly obvisious that the 1st and 2nd world can put up much more of a fight. It's the post-war world that get intriging IMHO(minus some nice fiction potential during the war).

Of course if I was Atvar, I would do something like seizing Australia first. It's relativly small, a isolated, so it's easier to defend. The Outback provides ideal settlement for the Colonization fleet that well arrive later on if you fail to secure more lands. Large swaths of North Africa, the Middle East, and Mexico/American South West can be used too.

[Othniel]

Dry Isolated places. Like that desert in China, the Great Basin, Angola, the Saharra Desert, Southren Cal, Argentina, Texas/Oklahoma, The Middle East...these places would probably be secured, tis true.

[zoomar]

Other than spaceships, it seemed their technology was on the order of US Desert Storm. In fact, I'd always wondered if the one-sided matchup of 1940-1970 era Iraqi strategy and tactics with 1990's US stuff wasn't an inspiration behind Turtledoves's idea to write the books in the first place. More than one person in 1990-91 commented on the fact that US technological superiority was so total it seemed like a war between space aliens (us) and 1950's humans.

If the Race showed up now, I'm not sure they could even get a foothold on earth.

[Romulus Augustulus]

Hmm. Would it be possible for the Terrans and the Race to secure a compromise, that is, the Terrans let the Race settle in certain areas, but the Race agrees to provide the Terrans with Race technology?

[Kadyet]

They've always seemed to me to be US Desert Storm level.

They're going to get a nasty surprise from Davy Crockett though. The Russians also had a nuclear mortar (200mm iirc), though I don't remember when it was deployed.

[Leo euler]

Originally Posted by Romulus Augustulus

Hmm. Would it be possible for the Terrans and the Race to secure a compromise, that is, the Terrans let the Race settle in certain areas, but the Race agrees to provide the Terrans with Race technology?

I always figured there were 6-10 million Lizard soldiers that invaded...after they were defeated, they'd have to go somewhere. I imagine that they would eventually be allowed to become citizens, or at least residents, of any country they chose to settle in. The reason for this is that their technological expertise in things like space travel and xenobiology would be a hot commodity; any industrialized nation with half a brain would invite them to come live in their country, I think. It would be sort of like Operation Paperclip in World War II, where the Americans went around Germany picking up German scientists.

[Kadyet]

The colonization fleet's screwed.

[Tyr]

What Zoomar said.
For the race killing us with nukes- wouldn't we see them and be able to launch our missiles at them before they get near us? I'm certain their nukes are all dropped by their planes and not on missiles (in world war at least)

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by MBarry829

That's part of the probelm with a post-ww2 Race operation. Any latter then that, those odd Tosevite's have already devolped nukes, and should probably be "cleansed" before they're a threat. Any sooner, we lack the means to seriously fight back. Hell, by the time the 60s roll around the EMP bursts they set off in the begining of the WorldWar series well be a big probelm, probably setting off a war between the US and the USSR anyway. I thinking of either letting the Race forget it's nuke back Home, or ASBs turning all fissonible material in warheads into lead or some. Spacewise, there wouldn't even bet much of a fight right now, even though I think cutting edge US military is better equiped then them.

Let's remember that the Race's warships aren't designed for nuking a planet from orbit, and that the world would've been bathed in radio waves discussing an alien empire for decades by the time they arrived.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Leej

What Zoomar said.
For the race killing us with nukes- wouldn't we see them and be able to launch our missiles at them before they get near us? I'm certain their nukes are all dropped by their planes and not on missiles (in world war at least)

That might be the case, but at the beginning of the series the race detonates some high altitude bursts to disrupt communications. of course it didn't work, but I don't expect a weapon like that to be delivered by aircraft.

[Thyme]

It seemed about 1990 tech. Their technology is a lot more reliable than even modern tech.

However.

The armor on a Race tank seems to be lighter than that on the M1A1/2. They were getting medium range side kills with a long 75. It does seem to be composite. If I was to guess, it would be slower and have a longer range than the M1 series also.

Killercraft seemed a more developed form of a lot of fighter/attack aircraft from the 60's/70's (F4, F15, a bunch of Mirages...). It seemed to be faster, and longer ranged than even modern OTL fighters. I'd bet on the Raptor agaist it at pretty steep odds though.

The helecopters always reminded me more of the Hind than any american copter (with the combination of being an attack and transport craft).

Their consumer electronics seem more advanced (oh, about as advanced as current when the second series came out).

[Johnestauffer]

There equipment was also physically smaller than a similiar piece of equipment that we would use.

[lope3328]

Another thing to look at is the fact that WE would know that they were comming to so we would be prepared for whatever happens and most likeley be treated as a threat.

[Justin Green]

I think that if they delayed the invasion till the early 60's (peak of the CMC). They might decide that they need to reformulate their fleet size and composition. Less nukes, less men...err lizards.

I think that hte race could possibly never detect the radio signals from earth until they had already sent the fleet. Why? The race were very confindent that Earth would still have the same tech level it had when it launched the probes. To detect the signals you have to have radio telescopes aimed at earth. Why aim at a planet you know wont send anything back? Its sort of a longshot but I think you could have that in a tl to give earth a chance from not simply getting glassed when the fleet arrives.

[Thyme]

If they wait too long, they may be discouraged from immediatly attacking. Instead, having the current fleet lurking in the outer system with the crews frozen, and calling home for reinforcements. They wouldn't at that time have the knowledge of how fast humanity was changing, and might see attacking 40-50 years later with a much larger fleet to be a good idea.

Of course, this would backfire, as humanity is progressing far faster than they thought possible, and they wouldn't remain unnoticed for long.

On the up side, it may mean a better space budget.

[Thande]

I always figured it was supposed to be 'modern' (ie 1994 for when 'In the Balance' was written) US tech, but with fewer scruples about things like nuclear power - it seems that the Race uses depleted uranium shells as well. I think Turtledove's point was that a modern army might well not have been able to beat a (larger) 1940s one because today we've lost the stomach for all-out warfare (as the Race has). Obviously though Race tech is more reliable than human tech.

Anyone who posits a scenario should read the beginning of In the Balance again. There is no way in the universe that Atvar is going to pick on a nice isolated spot like Australia. He was more or less aware of the political situation on Earth before landing yet he still landed isolated forces all over the world in many places and took on every country all at once (with the Race they might not even have understood the concept of seaprate countries yet). Furthermore Atvar nearly contemplates turning tail and fleeing when they learn the Tosevites have radio - he might actually do it if he finds they already have nukes.