A Shift in Priorities

[rast]

Education: the inculcation of the incomprehensible into the indifferent by the incompetent.
(John Maynard Keynes)

While John Maynard Keynes had no problems to agree to von Hayek’s prognosis about the bleak future of Wall Street, he had some reservations about the future of Britain. Yes, it was true that Britain had missed the Second Industrial Revolution, the one referred to as eruption of chemistry and electricity. This had been due to the antiquated British educational system. One percent of the total population, the upper class, had been in possession of a good system, tutoring their sons to become gentlemen and rulers of India. For the rank and file, there only had been available school education on the cheap, providing the clerks and workers required by their masters.

While, when the Great War had begun, Germany had possessed ten technical universities, in Great Britain there had been none. But the SUP, however deplorable their command economy and their controller system might be, were about to change that drastically. The national education system was going to be modernised and harmonised, providing good and science-oriented lessons to everyone. Okay, one was approximately fifty years behind Germany and the USA, but nevertheless, it was an important step forward. While at present, the British system was living from the inherited substance, in future, important new impulses and inventions might come from the British Isles.

Von Hayek had to admit that he hadn’t known about this new SUP policy. But wasn’t Britain due for elections next year? The current House had been elected in September 1931, so, within the next twelve months, Parliament had to be dissolved and new elections to be held. Wouldn’t that result in an assembly dominated by the Liberals? – Keynes shrugged his shoulders. Even if the elections were to be held, in which he didn’t really believe yet, he doubted whether the SUP would slacken their grip on power. In his appreciation, they would repeal the 1911 parliamentary act in regard to the length of the legislative period – and probably come up with a ten-year-period...

Was that possible, asked von Hayek. Yes, it could be done. The SUP held the absolute majority in the House, the press was under the thumb of the controller organisation – the Viscounts Rothermere had vanished in socialist labour camps during the Churchillian Rebellion and Lord Beaverbrook had fled home to Canada – therefore, the SUP was free to manipulate everything in their favour. Only the sincere and honourable – in Keynes’ appreciation – character of Prime Minister Mosley might prevent such a course of action.

So, this might result in the dictatorship of the proletariat? – No, not really. It might end in the dictatorship of the SUP – or, most probably, of the controllers. These generally were bright, young and well educated people – the emerging new ruling class. There still were some old fashioned labour union folks in the ranks of the SUP, but hardly in the controller organisation. – Wouldn’t there be resistance against these developments by the ancient Labour Party adherents? Yes, this had already happened. Three blokes had been sent into bedlam houses, two had vanished – and four were known to have committed suicide...

Von Hayek was startled. This was serious. It reminded him of the practises of the Russian Bolsheviks. This was no longer only an interesting economic variant, but rather growing into a tyrannous political system. – Yes, this was what Keynes thought as well. But nevertheless, it was a grandiose experiment, wasn’t it?

[Rooster Cogburn]

I don't care if he's passed out drunk in a sewer, we need Churchill!!!

[Whumbly]

Originally Posted by Rooster Cogburn

I don't care if he's passed out drunk in a sewer, we need Churchill!!!

Not a good idea. Churchill of ITTL would probably prefer Britian and all white, English speaking countries united into one country. Thus dooming Britian into becoming a puppet of the anti-German USA, without the Royal Navy to defend its shores.

My question is what will the army in Britian do if the country becomes a dicatorship under the controllers, since they don't have the controller dominance like in the navy and air force?

[Kelenas]

Originally Posted by rast

This was no longer only an interesting economic variant, but rather growing into a tyrannous political system. – Yes, this was what Keynes thought as well. But nevertheless, it was a grandiose experiment, wasn’t it?

Only as long as one's not nearby when it eventually blows up...

- Kelenas

[Peabody-Martini]

The only way Churchill is coming back to England is feet first, with the casket being carried down the gangplank by 8 close friends. He is seen as being too closely aligned to US interests. One of the consequences of the TAW is that European strategic planners were left with the stark reality that they could ill afford to have the US gain an advanced staging area on their side of the Atlantic. If it looked like he was returning to power in the UK it would trigger an immediate invasion for that reason. Don't think for an instant that those plans haven't already been drawn up by the OKW. If the economy in the UK collapses that eventuality could happen anyway. The Germans are going to be looking for a place to test out the new weapons and tactics.

[Kooluk Swordsman]

Originally Posted by Peabody-Martini

The Germans are going to be looking for a place to test out the new weapons and tactics.

If the Germans are going to test out their new stuff, it's going to be in their traditional training location; Russia.

Though if OTL's war between Germany and Russia was apocalyptic at best, TTL's war, well...

[Kvasir]

I think I understand why you want Britain to turn out this way, but it reads like you're forcing the situation to a pre-designed destination.

I'm afraid the scenario you've lain out wouldn't lead to the abandonment of Democracy or the Trade Union movement, which unlike in Bolshevik Russia is well developed and intrenched within the Socialist movement. Furthermore, these are not uneducated peasants but people brought up on Western traditions. The descent into Dictatorship is too smooth and the development of Controllers hugely implausable.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by Kvasir

I think I understand why you want Britain to turn out this way, but it reads like you're forcing the situation to a pre-designed destination.

I'm afraid the scenario you've lain out wouldn't lead to the abandonment of Democracy or the Trade Union movement, which unlike in Bolshevik Russia is well developed and intrenched within the Socialist movement. Furthermore, these are not uneducated peasants but people brought up on Western traditions. The descent into Dictatorship is too smooth and the development of Controllers hugely implausable.

What are you talking about?

Controllers are a logical institution of any radically left-leaning administration. If markets and entrepreneurs are evil, you've got to impose something that controls them or replaces them. Voila.

"Entrenched traditions" do not prevent changes in the political or economic system either. The Bolsheviks built an atheist Communist state in largely unindustrialized, deeply religious Russia. 40 years after the cultural revolutions former red guards built up one of the most capitalist countries in the world. Germany was a under the rule of law ever since the founding of the second Empire, yet the Nazis had no problem in ending that tradition.

Finally, considering the transition was "too smooth": Britain has lost the Great war, significant economic problems, a civil war, a German intervention on British soil, a partition of the UK - how's that smooth?

[Jotun]

I think Kvasir just succumbed to the Brit equivalent of US exceptionalism/determinism kneejerk reaction according to which things cannot be that aren't supposed to be concerning certain negative developments

[Expat]

Like anything with TTL, I assume that if it looks too smooth or easy it's only because we're all up in orbit somewhere looking down on the whole and can't see the day-to-day.

We know there's resistance at all levels, with the government and the controllers making it more appealing not to resist among a necessary plurality. The conservative nature of a lot of the rural population probably leads to passivity rather than resistance, as the upper class has been purged and the lower class is used to deferring.

We can assume that for the moment the trade unions are doing very well; goals met, food, security, even power, plus no more greedy bosses. Maybe they have an inkling now that the Controllers are taking more power than they should, but as long as the workers are comfortable and victorious, it's reasonable to say that they might rest on their laurels.

We know there is a massive punishment infrastructure that ends with labor camps but assumedly has other layers as well. Exactly the kind of thing that leads to the "First they came for..." situation.

But yes, details can become lost in a sprawling world such as this. My first approach when the US was being shafted was to rant about how things were being over-simplified, which helped no one. So then I started thinking about how I could help make the OP's vision seem more realistic to myself, and to give him more headaches in revenge at the same time.

And he's been gracious enough to allow me to contribute, which has been quite a lot of fun!


Now, back to the TL: three cheers for reiterating Scottish autonomy!

[wietze]

maybe an idea to do a post about the more brutal side of britain?
An inside view of that 'punishment infrastructure'

[trekchu]

After all this depressing stuff about Britain I now have to write something where they are totally badass.

[Peabody-Martini]

Originally Posted by Kooluk Swordsman

If the Germans are going to test out their new stuff, it's going to be in their traditional training location; Russia.

I thought the traditional training grounds for the Germans was France with Russia being the main event. ITTL that one is out so they'll need to look elsewhere.

[rast]

He’s mad that trusts in the tameness of a wolf, a horse’s health, a boy’s love, or a whore’s oath.
(William Shakespeare – King Lear)

The spectacle that was the disembarkation of IV. US Corps attracted lots of spectators, among them Yamashita Tomoyuki, who was taking a profound professional interest in the events. Certain that the Amerika-Jin couldn’t discern him from an ordinary Filipino, he had travelled to Cavite, rented an apartment with unobstructed sea view and equipped himself with a pair of good binoculars. He had briefly considered – but quickly rejected – to take photographs; this would ultimately make him stick out from the crowd of indigenes and compromise him, as he couldn’t legitimately claim to be a media reporter – and because the Amerika-Jin had banned all imaging except that done by their embedded reporters.

While the bulk of the innocent Filipino bystanders were obviously baffled by the apparent confusion, Yamashita, who had ample experience in this kind of activities, appreciated what he saw. The Amerika-Jin obviously had a plan and a tight schedule – and were doing their best to observe these presettings. Even submarine alarms – and there were several of them, all phony – didn’t detract them for long. There were some frictions between sailors and soldiers, but hardly more than could be expected to happen in a similar scenario in the Imperial Japanese Armed Forces.

Yamashita noted that the Amerika-Jin possessed special landing craft, flat-bottomed barges that could deliver men and vehicles to the beaches. There even were different types, large and small ones. The slow large craft could shuttle trucks, guns and armoured cars, while the fast small boats were only good for men, small utility cars and motorcycles. The beach-master organisation seemed to be rather vigorous. Yamashita was eagerly writing down comments about his observations using the special code he had developed already during his first sojourn on the Philippines.

The Filipino brass were very interested in Yamashita’s opinion. He knew that they hadn’t the slightest intention to fight the Amerika-Jin; but one never knew what occurred to these outlandish long noses. Well, these mountain troops were a force to be reckoned with. Yamashita wasn’t confident that President Aguinaldo’s projected triple attack – booze, whores and dope – would really work with these sombre grunts. The Filipinos might be in for a rude surprise.

But, on the other hand, while certainly impressive, the Amerika-Jin host was far too small to truly make an impact. They might have mightily impressed the ignorant indigenes fifty years ago, but today they just were good for an impressive horse and pony show – not for an efficacious occupation. One could rest assured and continue watching the spectacle unfolding. It was a kind of Kamishibai with life performers, only that no sweets were being served.

[Peabody-Martini]

So the US Army attempts to occupy Luzon while the real action is going on elsewhere. Better hope that the Filipino subs continue to go after warships because if they start attacking supply ships the expeditionary corps will have a few problems on their hands. I also figure that the commanding general will enjoy basically being the mayor of Manilla and not much else. Meanwhile the Japanese are taking notes, getting to know the US military in a way they never did in OTL. This will have some ugly ripples at some distant point in the future if there is ever a Pacific war like in OTL.

[nerdknight01]

¡ Hi !: ¡ GREAT UPDATES !.

So to many ideas, for start:

-Admiral Bagley, he knows how bad is in reality the situation for the americans, but the problem is that the rest of the american´s goverment, the army and the navy can´t see or wish to see the reality.

-General Dorey it looks as one medium, common military who really don´t know anything about his enemy, and worst, the american´s soldiers are in this conflict something scary, and don´t have the mentality of winers, or the knowledge that they are predators, ¡ heck ! they feel and move as the the future´s prey of philipines guerrillas.

-As for myself i be having one scary idea when was reading the excellent update. The Betchel Corporation are how to say, winning, becoming more rich because american army failures and limitations, and maybe is possible that this corporation push, move to american army to fight in how to say, unwining conflictsand because this ugly situation, this company will make money for american´s war failures.

-3 destroyers each week are losing the american every weak, maybe the philipines want to breack american´s economy of war.

-John Mayard Keines, what smart wise and intelligent economist, he can see the strong points and the fails of brithish economy.

[nerdknight01]

-Von Hayek, another genious in the field of modern economy, he can see the reality of the economy of the world, and i bet that he know that Wall Street´s meltdown will becoming something totally EPIC.

-About the brithish´s situation, what one totally complicated situation. The good news is that the brithish don´t it be having any problem of food for the next decades, but damm the price that pay for this human victory is so inmense, i supose that this brithish generation will it be so happy for having food in their tables every day, but the next generation will it be asking for freedom, more rights, etc... Other posibility is that the brithish liberals will obtain the power ( thats the better option ) in the next brithish elections. Or maybe Mosley try to make how to say, one pacific goverment change as how so say, similar to the Spain pacific change from military to democracy. And for last, we know that there exist controlers in the navy and brithish air forces, but in the army, maybe the brithish army will to do one coup d´etat and given in a pacific way to one democratic brithish goverment. In short: there to many options, and nothing to clear about England´s destiny, will see...

[nerdknight01]

-Tomoyuki Yamashita, what one amazing wise bastard, he is learning true, wise and important lessons for the Imperial Japanese Armed Forces, and IF ocurr one pacific´s war in some years between Japan and América, well...

-And for last, To Archangel: ¡ THANKS AGAIN !.

Is late now, i going to sleep some hours.

Good night, peace and good luck.

[rast]

The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; the second is war. Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunists.
(Ernest Hemingway)

Travelling on Cuba had not been without perilous moments for Oberst Aristide Lyanné, although his Spanish was quite adequate, but now, on Hispaniola, he felt at home. He had been fighting here some years ago, and many indigene guerrillas remembered him well. They were, however, somewhat disappointed that he hadn’t come to fight again – and to enhance his famous collection of Ami scalps. Damn, he regretted that as well, but his orders explicitly ruled out that he should turn combatant.

El Presidente had sent him to study the tactics, techniques and procedures of the US Marines – without getting into battle with them. Neither Venezuela nor Middle Africa were currently at war with the USA; his mission was simply to gather information. And being a good soldier, Lyanné was determined to obey the orders given to him – although his subconscious mind was itching to do otherwise.

Thus, he was assiduously assessing the strengths and weaknesses of the Ami occupants. And grudgingly, he had to admit that they were good – these Marines. They were made quite from another stuff than these decrepit army blokes he had fought four years ago. As a matter of fact, the Marines controlled both islands, only in the mountainous regions of Hispaniola were there some ‘liberated’ areas. In consequence, the guerrillas had reverted to bombing and hit-and-run tactics.

Even worse, the Marines were working hard to bring the population over to their side. They promised absence of violence and regular life, jobs and health care. And they were keeping their promises – if the population co-operated with them. So, the guerrillas actually were struggling hard to maintain their grip on the civilians. Taking out non-military key leaders had become an important occupation once more, as it was paramount to drive a wedge between the Marines and the natives.

Fortunately, the Amis were still bound by their allegiance to the old ruling elite, the land owners and urban upper classes. This widely sabotaged their attempts to win the hearts and minds of the rural population and the urban proletariat. It was known that several Marine commanders had proposed to drop this allegiance, but they had been overruled by the masters in Washington. But even given these obstructions, the Marines were doing a fine job. One could learn from them how to handle such an affair.

This was quite a contrast to what one was accustomed to experience from these Amis. Compared to what had happened in the Trans-Atlantic War, these Marines seemed to be the soldiers of quite another nation. But there also had been Marines fighting in former Liberia, hadn’t there? And on the Cape Verdes and other islands too. – Who had invented these new Marines?

Smedley Butler was the name Lyanné was slowly figuring out. This General obviously was behind the Marines eating boiled crow. There had to be a piece of paper, a doctrine describing this new approach. – After some profound talks with the guerrilla leaders, a raid was staged – and Lyanné was finally able to study General Butler’s directive concerning the conduct of Marine Corps operations in the Caribbean.

[clifton]

Ah general butler good to see that u.s military still have compete leaders.