A Shift in Priorities

[rudranna]

is it really as simple as the chinese ambassador puts it...or are we in for some serious replacements in China...rather is chiang going to meet an unfortunate accident

[altamiro]

Originally Posted by rudranna

is it really as simple as the chinese ambassador puts it...or are we in for some serious replacements in China...rather is chiang going to meet an unfortunate accident

I think Chiang will remain at the top - for a certain value of "top", that is. In public he will be still revered by all including his ministers; but if he gives an order that goes against those ministers' plans it will be ignored, and Chiang will have no way to change that.

[Bmao]

Originally Posted by altamiro

I think Chiang will remain at the top - for a certain value of "top", that is. In public he will be still revered by all including his ministers; but if he gives an order that goes against those ministers' plans it will be ignored, and Chiang will have no way to change that.

Or it could be that Chiang ends up purging Wang Jingwei and all of his opposition. I very much doubt that Chiang would meekly accept being relegated to a puppet status and would pull out all the stops to prevent this from happening. If Chiang ends up on top, he could justify the loss in Uighurstan by saying he was 'stabbed in the back' by his cowardly ministers.

I expect that in the next China installment chapter, we'll see some heads start to roll.

[Monty Burns]

It's very interesting how easily Wang Jingwei gets along the defeat and the losses. Probably the Turks will get bitter as well: loosing that much for land that most Chinese leaders see as worthless.

It's also remarkable how Wang Jingwei points out to China deploying its assets elsewhere to a better profit. Where could that be?

[nerdknight01]

¡ Hi !, to Torsioups amicus, about the situation in England goverment, one thing is to prettend to be a democracy, and other thig is to be a real democracy, don´t forget the Mosley presonality, the ideals of the socialists in the 30´s, the influence of Trosky in England goverment, etc... i have the hope that England whith the socialist goverment be going to a slow process of transition to a real democracy becuase the brithish after the civil war need for survival all the groups and ideologies for the process of reconstruction, and that whith the pass of time is a good news.
About the China situation, yep, Chiang in time can´t sustain the war effort because the economic storm who is coming, if he is obstinated in sustain that war, well, how to say, "LIFE IS COMPLICATED, AND ACCIDENTS HAPPEN". Thanks and good day.

[Bmao]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

It's very interesting how easily Wang Jingwei gets along the defeat and the losses. Probably the Turks will get bitter as well: loosing that much for land that most Chinese leaders see as worthless.

It's also remarkable how Wang Jingwei points out to China deploying its assets elsewhere to a better profit. Where could that be?

When signing a treaty that admits ones defeat, Wang seemed all too pleased and didn't show the slightest sign of humiliation or dissappointment. Its one thing to admit defeat, but defeatism is a different thing entirely. Regardless, if I was Enver, considering how servile Wang was in accepting the treaty, I'd try to push for as much as I can get out of this cowardly clique- war reparations, payment for damages incurred, military restrictions, etc, see if Wang has the balls to say 'enough is enough'. See if you can make them sign a 19th century style 'Treaty of Humiliation' for their act of wanton aggression. Chaing would have told Enver to screw himself if Enver had pushed too hard, and Enver understands that Chaing is willing to back up his threats by force, but with these weasels in charge I'd see what I could squeeze out of them and not let them get off easily. They're also in a very bad position to say 'no' to any additional demands, as their whole political position depends upon ending the war in Uighurstan and by doing so would undermine their cause.

Chaing's definitely made a mistake by extending himself too far, by now even he realizes that its a bad idea. Yet without Chiang and China falling under the control of these ministers, it'll likely be back to warlordism and the Cronyism of post Qing China. One gets the impression that Wang made these terms to the Turks, but did so in a fashion so that Chiang would not be informed until they ink was already dry, in a first step to seize power away from him.

I gets the impression that so long as Wang and his cronies get to keep their power, and have a nice feathered nest, they don't really care what they have to end up giving up. Maybe its just me, but Wang and his clique, they seem to content, too happy, too self assured in their own self worth and of their ability to seize control of power. They remind me of those palace eunuchs of Imperial times who would connive and build up power for themselves, undermine the Emperor's authority and ultimately weaken the Empire as a whole.

[Reichenfaust]

Well one thing is for sure, the great depression will be in full swing soon, after the US concludes peace with the germans, and that might make china have some rapprochment with russia. They are the literally the only country that is still isolated. It would be interesting to see a combined Russia, Asia conglomerate. That would be a fearsome power block

[C.Cain]

Originally Posted by Reichenfaust

Well one thing is for sure, the great depression will be in full swing soon, after the US concludes peace with the germans, and that might make china have some rapprochment with russia. They are the literally the only country that is still isolated. It would be interesting to see a combined Russia, Asia conglomerate. That would be a fearsome power block

True enough, but why would Russia want that? An industrialized China with all of East Asia as vassals or puppets is stronger than Russia; thus Russia would be the junior partner in that arrangement.

Unaligned, however, they'd be a game-changer in regards to any Asian and European conflict. They've still got (more or less) irredentist claims on the Western Central Powers, China and the Turkish Commonwealth. They could join a war against either side with a valid casus belli.
A strong Russia may thusly gain more influence by being courted by all sides involved than by committing to the goals of another power block.

[rast]

It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
(William Shakespeare)

Fury and bile raged inside him. These traitors!These lowly wimps! How could they dare? – He knew they never had understood him, had not seen the great picture, his grand scheme. They were worms, loathsome, slimy worms.
But those soldiers outside his house were real, their bayonets pointed and edged. Soldiers, who would not listen to his words, would not follow his commands – his guards, not his body guards.

He was a prisoner.
Oh, they had not dared to slay him, well knowing how popular he was with the populace, who adored him as the saviour of the country.
But he had been removed from power, had had no voice in the gutless decisions they had made.

He knew they would tell the world that he had agreed.
But that wasn’t true. – He hadn’t even been asked, being closed away and guarded in his house.

His wife, May-ling, had been taken away, allegedly to an estate in the mountains. But he wasn’t sure whether May-ling had not sided with the traitors. She certainly had ambitions of her own – and if she had decided that he no longer could serve her purposes, she also might have betrayed him.

He was so bitter, he couldn’t sleep. Only a short doze now and then. He had tried alcohol as a soporific, but that only made him sick – and ramped up his rage to the point of violence, leading to a broken mirror and some smashed furniture.

Throwing away Xinjiang, tossing it to the bloody Turks for nothing – these idiots! He had done everything to restore the Great Qing Empire, but they had trashed Xinjiang for a friendly smile of Enver Pasha, who was only glad to end the conflict – after his Ottoman troops had all been gutted…
Damn, the Turks had been near the breaking point, their trained divisions gone; and the irregulars of their allies had been constantly butchered by the large number.

But the generals had ganged up with the traitors, fearing for their priviliges and prerogatives, unwilling to give up any of their sinecures. He thought that General Li in Xinjiang was not part of the plot; but Li was too far away for having influence on events in Beijing.

He had tried to escape. A slowly healing bandaged scar on his upper leg was proof of the failure. Now, he had to use a cane for walking. A physician came to see him from time to time, a silent man, who would only look after the wound and leave again.

There was noise outside! A shot rang, two more!
Something crashed into the front door. – He took cover, that was all that he could do. They had taken away everything that might serve as a weapon.

“General Chiang?”
What was that? Certainly not his enemies… Was it rescue?
“Yes!” he shouted. “Over here!”

A man approached him, scrutinizing his guise, – and finally saluting.
“I’m Colonel Chen, Sir. – I and my men have come to liberate you.”
“Then let’s get out of here!”

His ‘guards’ were dead; lying on the floor slain. Chiang felt no compassion for them; he only wished that his greater enemies were to share the fate of these pawns.
He was ushered into a car, Colonel Chen taking place beside him.
“Go!” Chen ordered the driver.
“How many men do you have, Colonel?”
“My regiment, Sir. – When I learned that you were kept prisoner in your house, I decided to unfetter you. - I couldn’t believe that you had ever agreed to this spineless peace with the bloody Turks. I figured that you had been neutralised and were kept prisoner.”
“Well done, Colonel. – These traitors have sold China’s honour, they shall perish like they deserve.”

[Jotun]

Oh great :-/ Smells like another Chinese civil war...

[Peabody-Martini]

Looks like the ministers who negotiated with the Turks have just started a civil war and if the infamous phrase "peace for our time" is the direction of things to come then the Turks are in for a pounding as well.

[Jotun]

Mmmmh...it's quite difficult to fight an external enemy when there is internal strife.

[Peabody-Martini]

Not all at once. When Chiang has dealt with his domestic enemies odds are the Turks are next.

[Jotun]

With the depression at the gates, I doubt that.

[Kitiem3000]

It's extremely bad form to continue a war once you've made peace. Even with a good excuse. After all, if you do it once you can do it again. No nation can trust your word again after that.
He should wait atleast a decade. That's long enough to sell it as a completely new war.

[Expat]

Originally Posted by rast

His wife, May-ling, had been taken away, allegedly to an estate in the mountains. But he wasn’t sure whether May-ling had not sided with the traitors. She certainly had ambitions of her own – and if she had decided that he no longer could serve her purposes, she also might have betrayed him.

Until this paragraph, I thought we might be talking about Trotsky.

A Chinese civil war with Mr. Chiang vs. Madame Chiang, that is pretty dang epic! If it's come to a shooting war I expect coalitions to fall apart left and right. It's possible that Mme. Chiang is charismatic enough to keep a clique glued together. Maybe she'll even throw her support behind the democratic movement out of desparation?

Otherwise, the quagmire of warlordism might be just around the corner again...

Speaking of Mme. Chiang, what's Wendell Wilkie up to ITTL?

[Kelenas]

If there really is a new Chinese Civil War in the making, then I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese stood off to the side, snickering and rubbing their hands as they usurp the South-East Asian alliance/powerblock the Chinese originally built (forgot it's name).

- Kelenas

[wietze]

and of course there is also the possibility that colonel cheng is not who he seems to be. It might just be some scheming to stage an incident/accident in which chiang will die.

hmm interesting thought: Churchill and cronies flee to the us, but due to the peace talks they do not let him in, And in the end he ends up in australia, the same place where chiang ends too

[Bmao]

Originally Posted by wietze

and of course there is also the possibility that colonel cheng is not who he seems to be. It might just be some scheming to stage an incident/accident in which chiang will die.

hmm interesting thought: Churchill and cronies flee to the us, but due to the peace talks they do not let him in, And in the end he ends up in australia, the same place where chiang ends too

I'm sure that possibility has occurred to Chiang, but he has no choice but to trust this Colonel Cheng right now. Besides, by rescuing Chaing, Cheng has declared himself as the enemy of the ministers. Now that he's out, Chaing is going to go public and declare that his ministers had betrayed him, and sought to make him a puppet, which should do quite a bit to immediately undermine quite a bit of their authority off the bat. Chaing might have to pull off a 'Mao' and flee to the countryside, as right now the peasants seem like his strongest base of support at the moment, since they subscribe to the belief of Chaing being the savior of China. Come to think of it, might we see him join forces with Mao (or someone similar to him) and take on Wang and his clique (and set the irony meters bursting to the hilt again)?

[wietze]

would indeed be ironic big time if it is chiang who starts a peoples movement and a long march even

but this colonel has only a regiment, thats not much against the whole of china.