A Shift in Priorities

[lichtbringer]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

I think eugenics at least in parts already got weakened in Europe.

The successes in Mittelafrika show that these were by no means "inferior" people. The "pedagogical" approach of the German colonial regime showed that human beings are mainly determined by upbringing, not by race. Industrialization in other parts of the world showed the very same, as does the Heymshtot proving antisemitic prejudices wrong. So it's not that unlikely to assume that some of the fundamental thoughts of eugenics (aka: it's all inherited, hence deterministic and cannot be changed) are already challenged in Europe.

This does not, of course, prohibit the usage of Eugenics for diseases which actually are hereditary.

Yes, all that you are saying is true in general. But there's also an other aspect of eugenics: The sterilisation of mental of physical handicapped people. I think this way of eugenics without the terror of OTL WW II will be used a long time ITTL. In OTL sterilisation of handicapped was practised by some countries until the 70's.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by lichtbringer

Yes, all that you are saying is true in general. But there's also an other aspect of eugenics: The sterilisation of mental of physical handicapped people. I think this way of eugenics without the terror of OTL WW II will be used a long time ITTL. In OTL sterilisation of handicapped was practised by some countries until the 70's.

I'd say this depends. The general opinion should be that some things could be treated. However, if those handicaps are indeed hereditary or are believed to be so, sterilisation is likely ITTL. And it will likely occur longer than IOTL. Due to development in OTL third world countries, it will probably continue on a worldwide scale and thus affect a by far higher number of people.

[rast]

Don’t fight a battle if you don’t gain anything by winning.
(Erwin Rommel)

With regret, Admiral Adolf von Trotha looked at the calendar in the operations room of SMS Seydlitz II. – 31st of May 1931, but there would be no repetition of the Battle of Jutland today.
He would not lead the Hochseeflotte into the English trap. If the English wanted to restore the blockade of the ports in socialist possession, their fleet would have to remain where it currently was.
And because the English kept close to the coast, they were vulnerable to mines and submarine attack, especially at night.

Von Trotha had already issued orders setting that in train. The low energy radio relay chain to Wilhelmshaven provided him with the opportunity to communicate – without that the English were able to hear it with their eavesdropping stations. Because of the new electro-mechanical rotor machines used for encryption and decryption, he was certain that they couldn’t read the messages anyway. But with the recently introduced low energy relay chain, they wouldn’t even be able to detect a ship’s position, which a high energy broadcast would have provided them.

OKW understood that he wouldn’t attack the English fleet in an area where the English would enjoy absolute air superiority. It was a pity, because von Trotha would have liked to test the Siemens-Schuckerts in their new bomber role. After Konteradmiral (commodore) Sachsenberg, the chief of the fleet air arm, had finally revealed that the Siemens-Schuckert ET.I could be easily and quickly be converted to a bomber, von Trotha and von Raeder had quickly discarded the old Hipper-Doctrine. German carriers were now able to reach out and punch objects as far away as 300 kilometres. Sachsenberg had had initiated this dual role capacity some years ago despite Hipper’s doctrine, but had been unable to get it endorsed as long as Franz von Hipper had been the head of SKL.

No, the English fleet would be attacked with mines and torpedoes. Von Trotha had ordered the littoral flotillas from Belgium and Germany into action, which were ideally suited for the task.
The large fleet submarines were too big and bulky. Nevertheless, he had despatched several packs of them to the north and to the south, because of their ability to run fast even if submerged they were good for hunting down retreating English vessels.

OHL was not happy with this development; they had hoped to rush more troops to England in order to get a quick and decisive victory. But OKW had disregarded their protests. It was far more important to attrite the English fleet. Once this fleet had lost its sting, the English Putschists would be done anyway – without great land battles that only could wreak havoc in a highly developed and industrialised country.

Von Trotha thought that already the coming night would see grievous losses occur on the English side. While high speed and numerous escorts made torpedo attacks rather difficult and dangerous, they were no remedy against mines. And who moved slowly and carefully in order to avoid mine hits became an easy victim of torpedoes. Whatever the English did, it would bring them in distress.

Because a high amount of co-ordination was required for multi-national operations, the allies had been asked not to contribute forces. This would be an operation exclusively conducted by the Germans.
The small operations area required exact distribution of responsibilies between the submarine flotillas. And the flotillas had to exactly define approach lanes, which had to be kept free of mines, areas to be mined and areas for torpedo attacks.

Adolf von Trotha nevertheless regretted that no formal battle between the two fleets would take place. If the English had dared to leave the cover of their land based aircraft, he would have liked to show them who had the better men and the better ships. But now, matters being as they were, he would not go down in the naval annals as the man who completed the work begun at Jutland…

[Jotun]

Ah. The HSF is showing very good thinking here and an astounding ability to learn and improve. Almost a pity that the refitted carrier planes won't be springing a nasty surprise on the Churchillians. But with mines, subs and torpedo boats/destroyers (I am assuming that you are counting the latter among the littoral forces here) pitted against the Putschist TF, there really is no need for a risky battle in range of Churchillian bomber forces.

You never know, this coming action off Hull might just spell the end for the "heavies" ITTL (battle cruiser and larger). About 15 years early. Nice.

[Kelenas]

Looks like the German Naval Aviation finally caught up to what the Italians already knew long ago and turned their carrier aircrafts from fighter-only to a fighter-bomber multirole configuration.

I'm curious, though, doesn't the fact that pretty much the entire conservative navy and airforce is concentrated at one point provide plenty of openings to exploit? Other harbors where troops can be ferried in, for example?

- Kelenas

[trekchu]

Originally Posted by Jotun

You never know, this coming action off Hull might just spell the end for the "heavies" ITTL (battle cruiser and larger). About 15 years early. Nice.

Unfortunately this is more than likely.

[Expat]

Originally Posted by Kelenas

I'm curious, though, doesn't the fact that pretty much the entire conservative navy and airforce is concentrated at one point provide plenty of openings to exploit? Other harbors where troops can be ferried in, for example?

I agree, even if the picket blockade is put back into place, that's something the Germans could push through. I assume the Churchillians lack sea mines, otherwise they would've just mined the hell out of the Socialist coast and harbor approaches.

Rast mentioned that the Spanish have expressed a burning desire to get into the fight- I assume this can only be in exchange for Gibraltar- so that might be a good place to look for a landing to come from. Again, the Italian fleet could lead them in. I'd still like to get France in on an invasion. The Danes and Norwegians should be able to send some ships in through Scotland, now that Scapa's cleared out.

And of course any Irish volunteer units that feel like making the trip can probably get into Glasgow at this point as well. We might see Irish volunteers bolstering Scottish lines at this point. They've got a lot to gain, symbolically, politically and economically from an independent Scotland. Brethren Celts and all. Speaking of this, there are certainly some Americans and Canadians who will now refuse to support Churchill because a Socialist victory means a more independent Scotland.

Let's see: Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Ireland...are there any other countries that have tried to invade Britain in the past 1500 years?

And I still think the derelict fleet in Portsmouth is incredibly vulnerable.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by Expat

I agree, even if the picket blockade is put back into place, that's something the Germans could push through. I assume the Churchillians lack sea mines, otherwise they would've just mined the hell out of the Socialist coast and harbor approaches.

...

Let's see: Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Ireland...are there any other countries that have tried to invade Britain in the past 1500 years?

France is a big what-if here.

Rast pointed out that belgian littoral units could participate, so Belgium is in. The Allied air forces could easily deploy some planes to Belgium - together with the littoral navies they should be able to block the street of dover from a retreating RN, right? In turn, troops could be deployed to Wales from Spain - or France.

I still think that the British civil war is a major opportunity for France to regain international prestige and influence and at the same time to prohibit that the socialists as likely winner become complete Germanophiles. 5 French divisions landing at Cardiff could do that.

[altamiro]

Originally Posted by Expat

Rast mentioned that the Spanish have expressed a burning desire to get into the fight- I assume this can only be in exchange for Gibraltar- so that might be a good place to look for a landing to come from.

But Gibraltar is in Socialist hands right now, transferring it to Spain might reduce Mosley's power base significantly. Not saying that there cannot be other compromises regarding Gibraltar short of full souvereignity transfer...

[Peabody-Martini]

In order to man the ships of the British home fleet crews were taken from many other ships. This could create problems with coordination, particularly in areas of fire or damage control as the crews have not had time to jell properly.

Just how many light units are with the home fleet? And if there are few of them present whats going to happen when the German U-boats arrive on the scene?

The home fleet could well be forced to make a run at the HSF out of desperation, a direct fleet action better than being decimated by subs and mines.

[Expat]

Originally Posted by altamiro

But Gibraltar is in Socialist hands right now, transferring it to Spain might reduce Mosley's power base significantly. Not saying that there cannot be other compromises regarding Gibraltar short of full souvereignity transfer...

Rast just mentioned in a post that the Spanish were clamoring for direct intervention on the side of the Socialists. I can't think of a reason why Spain- the most conservative government in the Continental Alliance- would be the voice for action unless Mosley had already suggested the deal. Certainly he would not have suggested a changeover before the end of hostilities. There's no reason the deal even needs to be made public until Britain is at peace.

But this was just a guess and I could be totally wrong.

[wietze]

Originally Posted by Expat

Let's see: Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Norway, Denmark, Ireland...are there any other countries that have tried to invade Britain in the past 1500 years?

And I still think the derelict fleet in Portsmouth is incredibly vulnerable.

The Netherlands did, twice, The Battle at medway saw a small landing .
And of course the glorious revolution was actually a dutch invasion that succeeded

[Jotun]

Originally Posted by trekchu

Unfortunately this is more than likely.

I think I see what you mean. But in the age that seems to be dawning quite early, battlecruisers and battleships are a waste of men and resources. Away with them, I say!

And I am one of those who LOVES the biggies...ever since I was on USS Iowa when I was about 10 or so (she was visiting Kieler Woche back then)...

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by altamiro

But Gibraltar is in Socialist hands right now, transferring it to Spain might reduce Mosley's power base significantly.

That's true.

On the medium range, though, the question arises what stategic value Gibraltar still has ITTL. India is lost, and so is the necessity to provide bases to protect the sealines to India for Britain. The Suez channel is lost as well.

If I remember correctly, Bombay is still a British base. But Bombay would probably be most useful as an OTL-Hong-Kong analogon, providing an entrance point for British business, rather than a British naval base in an ocean controled by the Ottomans, the Aryan power bloc, the East Asian power bloc and sooner or later Mittelafrika).

The British should seriously consider their role in this world. In particular, they should seriously reconsider the respective strategic value of their remaining possessions worldwide.

[rast]

Originally Posted by Expat

Rast just mentioned in a post that the Spanish were clamoring for direct intervention on the side of the Socialists. I can't think of a reason why Spain- the most conservative government in the Continental Alliance- would be the voice for action unless Mosley had already suggested the deal.

Hm? The Spanish have some bones to pick with the US, but the UK for them is just an opportunity to make money by selling foodstuffs - and, hopefully, get a free hand for seizing Gibraltar.
The current government has no great sympathies for socialists - neither domestic ones nor the British variety.

What I`ve written was that the Spaniards had no problems with a pre-emptive German strike on the Grand Fleet, their authoritarian government not being tied by moral reservations and legalistic catches. But that was no vote for a Spanish engagement of any kind.

[rast]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

If I remember correctly, Bombay is still a British base.

Bombay is firm in Indian Federation hands since long. The British have no bases on the Indian sub-continent any longer. (But still hold the islands - except Ceylon - in the Indian Ocean.)

But you' re right: Neither Malta nor Gibraltar serve any strategic pupose - after the Suez Canal and India have been lost; they might become bargaining chips for a future British government - other than a Churchillian one, which would try to get Egypt, the Suez Canal and India back.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by rast

Bombay is firm in Indian Federation hands since long. The British have no bases on the Indian sub-continent any longer. (But still hold the islands - except Ceylon - in the Indian Ocean.)

But you' re right: Neither Malta nor Gibraltar serve any strategic pupose - after the Suez Canal and India have been lost; they might become bargaining chips for a future British government - other than a Churchillian one, which would try to get Egypt, the Suez Canal and India back.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Now that Bauer had his first try on invading islands with the Kapverdes, "liberating" Sansibar and occupying some bases for Mittelafrika in the Indian ocean seems to be exactly his line of thinking. I expect OKW is just getting bombarded by reports from Bauer proposing new ideas. Either the socialists sell land and decolonialize other possesions, or the Churchillians win and Bauer will take care of the colonies, IMHO.

And that black South-African state might get an interest in Botswana and Zimbabe as well - what British influence is left there anyway?

[clifton]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

Thanks for clearing that up.

Now that Bauer had his first try on invading islands with the Kapverdes, "liberating" Sansibar and occupying some bases for Mittelafrika in the Indian ocean seems to be exactly his line of thinking. I expect OKW is just getting bombarded by reports from Bauer proposing new ideas. Either the socialists sell land and decolonialize other possesions, or the Churchillians win and Bauer will take care of the colonies, IMHO.

And that black South-African state might get an interest in Botswana and Zimbabe as well - what British influence is left there anyway?

I think that mittelafrica would want Botswana and Rodeshia has a land connection with south west africa.

[Expat]

Originally Posted by rast

Hm? The Spanish have some bones to pick with the US, but the UK for them is just an opportunity to make money by selling foodstuffs - and, hopefully, get a free hand for seizing Gibraltar.
The current government has no great sympathies for socialists - neither domestic ones nor the British variety.

What I`ve written was that the Spaniards had no problems with a pre-emptive German strike on the Grand Fleet, their authoritarian government not being tied by moral reservations and legalistic catches. But that was no vote for a Spanish engagement of any kind.

My mistake. It read like they were itching for a fight, which struck me as odd, and I guess it was.

I'm still unclear about the state of British Africa as well. Rhodesia hasn't been mentioned much. The fact that they haven't rebelled already tells me the white ruling class is probably still in place, and undoubtedly Churchill-friendly. However, it would certainly behoove them to pull a Canada and keep their mouths shut about it (considering their neighbors,) which could justify why we haven't heard anything from their direction.

Nigeria and Ghana would likely feel pressure from Mittelafrika at this point and are probably even reaching out to them. Kenya and Uganda as well. I agree with Monty that the Rhodesias and Botswana will more likely gravitate towards South Africa. Only Sierra Leone, Gambia and British Somalia are isolated from the continental powers in Africa and might remain in British orbit for the time being.

I suppose after the civil war is over will probably be a good time to revisit the status of these colonies (plus Malta, Gibraltar, British Guiana, British Honduras, the Caribbean posessions, the Indian Ocean posessions and Singapore.)

[nerdknight01]

About Eugenics the good news is that common concepts of racism be eliminated, the bad news in Eugenics is been used for the tratament of mental pacients, and in new ways, for example early profilatic double mastectomies in young womans.
About the brithish float why i having the sweet idea that the Churchill´s sea boats became a new ironic version of THE SPANISH ARMADA.
Finnaly, i wonder how are doing in this moment the guerrilla´s groups in Haiti and latin américa countries, thanks and good luck.