A Shift in Priorities

[Josephus]

May I suggest the perfect place for the trials of war criminals after the war?
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Nuremberg, Pennsylvania.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by lichtbringer

OK, the americans invaded two estates of two european countries who have till now nothing to do with the war between the U.S. and Germany. That a stupid move born out of arrogance. .

As far as I can see, occupation of Azores and Iceland has only one purpose, to prevent HSF and german submarines to operate in Atlantic.
And that would mean that US is keen on retaking Liberia.

[altamiro]

Originally Posted by Beer

And I hope both Ch/Vans get a heart attack when they see their little plan backfired fully, when Germany´s reputation in Europe rises even higher by helping Denmark and Portugal getting their lands back.

As I wrote before, Ch/Vans are rather playing a game in which they cannot lose. The outcome they want to prevent is loss of importance by UK. It does not matter whether they run UK into a German/US war on US or on German side, they just need to be backing the winning side and be seen making a major contribution - and already they can claim being the big player again, of course under the benevolent and competent Conservative rule.

[lichtbringer]

Originally Posted by abc123

As far as I can see, occupation of Azores and Iceland has only one purpose, to prevent HSF and german submarines to operate in Atlantic.
And that would mean that US is keen on retaking Liberia.

That may be the idea behind that but nevertheless it was incredible stupid. The U.S. alienate uninvolved countries which in other circumstances would have liked to see the mighty german ass spanked.
The U.S. have produced their own "Raping poor little Belgium"-Propaganda.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by lichtbringer

The U.S. have produced their own "Raping poor little Belgium"-Propaganda.

Yap.
That's right.

[Kelenas]

Originally Posted by altamiro

As I wrote before, Ch/Vans are rather playing a game in which they cannot lose. The outcome they want to prevent is loss of importance by UK. It does not matter whether they run UK into a German/US war on US or on German side, they just need to be backing the winning side and be seen making a major contribution - and already they can claim being the big player again, of course under the benevolent and competent Conservative rule.

Actually, Churchill/Vansittart's plans were explicitly aimed at breaking or at least reducing German predominance on the continent. In that regard, their plans have failed rather spectacularly, as some nations that would be otherwise quite content to stay completely neutral (such as Denmark) will now look for protection from the aggressive US, and their best bet happens to be Germany and its alliance.
Even if they won't fall over themselves in hurry to join up, relations between them and Germany will become closer, provided that Germany's diplomatic service doesn't have its head up its arse.

The U.S. have produced their own "Raping poor little Belgium"-Propaganda.

Except that the US isn't content with just one country.

- Kelenas

[Bmao]

I think the best chance for the US to find a willing ally would be China, as I suggested before. They already have a beef against the Ottomans, and I don't think the Chinese really care about the US' lack of regard for international law as much as the Europeans would. China is already hated by Europe, so they don't have much to lose in that regard.

Maybe the US could find an ally in the Russians, but that is less likely as Matutin would probably rather stay neutral, though I don't think they care as much about lack of US regard of international law.

Think of it this way. For the Americans, this was their pearl Harbor. Only 3000 Americans died in Pearl Harbor, and in this scenario 6000 died at the hands of the German trained MittleAfrikans. I think the US is saying to the world; 'After you killed our boys, I don't care what rules you think we should follow anymore. You're going to pay and we're going to knock you around and we're goinng to scare you shitless and there is nothing you can do about it'. In fact, the US are using these small nations as hostages to hold against the Europeans, because if they start something, bang!!, you've got the beginning of WWII. I think in this case, the US is actually trying to provoke the Germans into upping the ante and thus we'll have the very thing the Germans have been trying to avoid.

[Parma]

I really like to read the public opinion in Europe especial in France and even more the opinion of the British.
Looks to me that this USA actions will have an enormous back fire in Europe since they invade parts of European nations who cherished their neutrality very much and and nothing to do with the political tensions between USA and Germany.
I would also like to read the reaction of Churchill and Co of this move of the USA. Most unexpected and at least Churchill must realize that this plan of him is spiraling out of control and misfires completely.

[Kelenas]

Allying with the Chinese wouldn't actually do anything for the US, though. It doesn't open them any new strategic avenues and doesn't offer the US anything they don't already have themselves in terms of resources.

- Kelenas

[altamiro]

Originally Posted by Bmao

Think of it this way. For the Americans, this was their pearl Harbor. Only 3000 Americans died in Pearl Harbor, and in this scenario 6000 died at the hands of the German trained MittleAfrikans. I think the US is saying to the world; 'After you killed our boys, I don't care what rules you think we should follow anymore. You're going to pay and we're going to knock you around and we're goinng to scare you shitless and there is nothing you can do about it'.

With a small difference that Pearl Harbour was an attack out of the blue. Here, USA have already commenced hostilities and an US Marine unit already committed a first major war crime BEFORE the first Mittelafrikan torpedo hit the water.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by altamiro

With a small difference that Pearl Harbour was an attack out of the blue. Here, USA have already commenced hostilities and an US Marine unit already committed a first major war crime BEFORE the first Mittelafrikan torpedo hit the water.

Important is that Americans got a bloody nose here.

[Shogo]

You're completely forgetting, or ignoring, the fact that they think Mittelafrika, and by extension Germany, is the aggressor.

Remember, as far as America is concerned, they have been raiding Liberia, massacring civilians, and massacring/torturing to death members of the US' armed forces.

America still thinks everything they're doing is essentially self-defense. And it is. America is just "defending" itself from the wrong people.

Germany also needs to do a better job of finding evidence. It'd be way too easy for any skeptics to look at that last "This is why we're innocent." attempt as "Those Germans just grabbed a random Negro and told him to say he's one of the dead ones!"

So yeah. You can boo and hiss America all you want, but from their perspective the Germans/MittelAfrikans did all the bad things FIRST.

Don't ignore that just because America is super racist right now.

[luis3007]

Of course the Americans have their own viewpoint.....and who else believes it?
The Europeans, who are seeing their lands "protected", the Africans who know how the US regards them, the Latinos, who are under the boot in their own homelands, the Canadians or Australians, who are taking their cue from socialist Britain, the Chinesse or the Ottomans, who are busy with each other

So in the end it doesn't matter what the Americans believe, for the rest of the world they are the agressors.....doesn't this sound familiar?

[Expat]

Actually that's a good question, how are the Canadians taking this? Some level of US dominance is probably inevitable at the moment, but are they willingly dominated or would they prefer to go in a different direction?

Any sympathy the world had for the US following the massacre was squandered when they started invading random Atlantic islands. This is another chance for the Germans to approach the French for international cooperation, strictly limited to the Azores and possibly Iceland.

Iceland's a very interesting place for a proxy war, and not one much considered in AH.

[Monty Burns]

Originally Posted by Expat

Any sympathy the world had for the US following the massacre was squandered when they started invading random Atlantic islands. This is another chance for the Germans to approach the French for international cooperation, strictly limited to the Azores and possibly Iceland.

That's indeed a very interesting development.

If I remember correctly, Sweden and Finland already are part of the CPMZ - yet with some special privileges preserving their independence. The US likely just brought in the last independent Scandinavian country, and quite probably the Swedes and Finns are willing to cooperate closer with Germany (although that doesn't necessarily mean going to war with the Germans, the CPMZ might cooperate closer and might be updated by mutual defense agreements to hold for the future).

Portugal is another interesting point, as the US just directly attacked a member of the Union Latin, which has been their best chance to bring war into Europe. Had the Union Latin some mutual defense obligations?

Another idea: with two neutrals attacked, could Germany bring the CPMZ - and maybe even the Union Latin - to economic sanctions against the US? With the Great Depression in the beginning, closing European markets could hurt the US deeply, whereas German industry on the other side could win market shares.

[rast]

Ist der Ruf erst ruiniert – lebt sich’s herrlich ungeniert.
(Once your renown is down the drain – relax and enjoy life again. – German saying)


The McAdoo administration never had held any illusions about US standing in Europe. Ever since the Great Southern Conquest, the ‘Yankee’ had been the bête noire of European public opinion. In novels and movies, the ‘ugly Americans’ usually featured as evil wretches and bad guys. Especially European socialists – inspired by the writings of Emma Goldman and Rosa Luxemburg – regarded the US as Karl Marx’ capitalist hell become real.
As long as the US had remained isolationist, this hadn’t mattered much. Business always has been business; earning money has no relation to morale, not even for the highest-minded Europeans.
But now, when German aggression forced the US to act, European reactions to US actions might be of importance.

There had been a heated debate in cabinet about how to counter the German threat. That something had to be done was evident. The death of almost 6,000 US sailors required immediate action – at least to secure the US position until massive retaliation became possible.
Claude Augustus Swanson, the Secretary of Navy, had urgently argued for acquiring bases in the Atlantic. Germany possessed a large number of oceangoing submarines. The US east coast with all its multiple maritime movements was extremely vulnerable to submarine attack.
Bermuda, Greenland, Iceland and the Azores Islands had to be secured.
Secretary of War Joseph Patrick Kennedy and Secretary of Air Force George Henry Dern had seconded Swanson. The German submarine threat had to be countered by long range air patrols and naval hunter-killer groups from bases available on these islands.

Secretary of State Cordell Hull had warned against actions that violated the rights of neutral nations – which might become allies in due course. Offended sensibilities might lead these nations to supporting the enemy.
“What is our aim in this war?” he had asked. “Before we go ahead and rashly act, we should consider what we want to achieve.”
“We have been attacked. Our soldiers haven been cruelly butchered; nineteen American ships have been sunk; a country that belongs to our zone of influence has been occupied. – The nation cries for revenge.” answered Vice President William Randolph Hearst. “Our aim must be to beat the shit out of these Germans, beat them in Africa, Europe and everywhere else we find them. We must restore national pride, that’s important. I give a damn about our international reputation.”
“That doesn’t exactly sound like a set of realistic war aims.” replied Hull.
“Hell, as I’ve already said: We are the attacked ones. We didn’t start this bloody war. We must defend ourselves. And if it is necessary to occupy these islands, then I say: Let’s do it. – I mean, we do not annex them, we only occupy them for our protection – and of course will hand them back, once the threat has been removed.”

“Do we have a realistic chance of beating the Germans on land?” inquired President McAdoo.
“With our present standing army, the answer is plainly: No, we don’t.” explained Kennedy. “What we have is even insufficient to frighten the Middle Africans. We might be able to beat their expeditionary force in Liberia, Guinea and Côte d’Ivoire, but Middle Africa proper is another story. – We need to build up our army considerably. – At present we have one armoured corps, which hardly has any tanks, and five army corps made from infantry units. Plus the National Guard, of course. They might relieve units on security duty in Central America and the Caribbean, so that at least the regular army attains full strength. – In addition, the Navy has the equivalent of two army corps with six Marine divisions.
So, all we can field are eight army corps. The Germans – without mobilization – have about 28 army corps in Germany and 15 in Middle Africa. Once they mobilize, their numbers will double.”

“That means we’ll take years to even catch up with them only.” mused McAdoo. “Thus, the security of the US will rest with our navy, which – I gather – is the strongest one on the world today?”
“Well, stronger than the German navy or the British navy, but only as long as these two do not combine…” answered Swanson.
“Then it would be a clever idea not to occupy Bermuda, because it’s British, – just to make sure the Royal Navy doesn’t join forces with the German navy.” injected Hull.
“Yeah, we should strive to keep them neutral or friendly, despite them being bloody socialists.” agreed the President. “Is there any chance that Denmark will allow us to use Greenland and Iceland? Or Spain the Azores?”
“No, the Danes fear German invasion. – And Portugal, Mister President, who owns the Azores, fears that Middle Africa will swallow their colonies.”
“So, for our national security we occupy these islands, but keep clear of Bermuda.” decided the President.

[Monty Burns]

Great post, rast. Clears quite some thing up.

First, the American want to go offensive and beat the Germans - which should ensure a series of defeats for the US.

Second, the National Guard in the occupied Latin American countries makes organized resistance there easier.

Third, it seems that the Americans indeed do not care a bit about neutrality.



I somehow like the idea of the US patroling the Atlantic at massive costs into the Great Depression - and the Germans just doing nothing besides sinking what attack forces the US sent to Mittelafrika or Europe. Later this becomes known as the "cheap war" in Germany and the "costly war" in the US...

[Shogo]

Well, I actually want the US to grind into dust any attempted uprisings.

Hell, let's go for broke and take the whole of North America.

I do think things have gone a little too well for Mittel Afrika but they are German trained and Germans don't fuck around when military matters are concerned.

Though I hate Goldman and Luxemburg. I remember wanting them dead earlier. Still do.

[SavoyTruffle]

Okay, did the US just go past its badboy threshold?

[Expat]

The situation on those islands is going to deteriorate fast. I doubt a military used to oppressing Latinos is going to mark much difference between temporary occupation and permanent occupation, especially if the locals don't like them much. They'll treat the Azores the same as any of their other occupied countries.

Iceland is a different enough landscape and people that the soldiers might not immediately fall into the same mentality, but my money's still on abuse. Icelanders might be able to put up a better fight since cavalry and airplanes- the tools used to sweep the Mexicans out of the bush- are of limited utility in Iceland.