WI Charles V converted to Protestantism?

[Kaiser Kris]

In my AH.com travels, I haven't yet seen a thread devoted to this question. Now, granted, politically, it probably didn't make sense for Charles V to have done so, but it's not ASB to have someone have a sudden, personal spiritual insight.

Although the Reformation succeeded in a sense, by surviving and destroying the unity of Western Christendom, in a sense, it could be said to have failed. Huge areas of Europe were successively recoverted to Catholicism, and only a relatively small minority of Europe's total population (a quarter at best) ended up as Protestants of widely divergent sorts. Would imperial patronage have changed that, or simply created worse disorder and perhaps an even stronger Counterreformation in the end?

So, what if the Holy Roman Emperor and King of Spain suddenly converted to Protestantism? Or, alternatively, his brother, Ferdinand, who succeeded him as Holy Roman Emperor?

Extraneous Note- Long time since I've posted. Life got weird.

[some kind of chimp]

Looks like Spain will be needing a new monarch...

[Kaiser Kris]

Originally Posted by some kind of chimp

Looks like Spain will be needing a new monarch...

Most likely there would be some pretty massive revolutions throughout Charles's vast dominions, although without his staunch Catholicism to be counted on, you might find that Protestantism catches on stronger in some areas it never quite took in, Austria, Bohemia- who knows, maybe even the urban parts of Lombardy.

It might fall to the French to act as the 'champion' of Catholicism if the Habsburg domains melt down ... it's hard to say what the long-term effects would be for sure. If Ferdinand also converted to Protestantism, that might pretty much seal a Protestant HRE, or none at all.

[Chengar Qordath]

Originally Posted by some kind of chimp

Looks like Spain will be needing a new monarch...

Yeah, Charles would definately have a lot of unhappy nobles to deal with; quite possibly more than he can handle.

Assuming Charles survives in power and holds all his realms it might well be the death knell of the Catholic Church though; their strongest and staunchest OTL defender is now going to be their deadliest enemy. Portugal might well face "conversion or war" ultimatums from Spain, and Spanish backing the Huguenots rather than their OTL support for the Ultra-Catholics might well push France into the Protestant camp as well; a protestant Habsburg Empire is also likely to crush Catholicism in Italy. At that point the Catholic Church doesn't have much left, though IMO the Habsburgs converting might also prompt the Papacy to try for a negotiated solution to the Reformation.

[Kaiser Kris]

Originally Posted by Chengar Qordath

Yeah, Charles would definately have a lot of unhappy nobles to deal with; quite possibly more than he can handle.

Assuming Charles survives in power and holds all his realms it might well be the death knell of the Catholic Church though; their strongest and staunchest OTL defender is now going to be their deadliest enemy. Portugal might well face "conversion or war" ultimatums from Spain, and Spanish backing the Huguenots rather than their OTL support for the Ultra-Catholics might well push France into the Protestant camp as well; a protestant Habsburg Empire is also likely to crush Catholicism in Italy. At that point the Catholic Church doesn't have much left, though IMO the Habsburgs converting might also prompt the Papacy to try for a negotiated solution to the Reformation.

The notion of a negotiated solution to the Reformation is interesting. What would the Papacy be willing to give up to the reformers? What would they insist on maintaining?

But what if, perhaps, we see a Habsburg civil war, between Protestant factions in the HRE and the Low Countries, and a Catholic faction based in Spain and Southern Italy, with the city-states of Northern Italy perhaps being a wild card? For some reason, I've always seen Milan, Genoa and Venice as being potentially open to Reformation, if the political cards were shuffled a little differently- this may be irrational.

[Condottiero]

I think it would spell doom for the Hapsburg:
1) Charles V converts to Reformed Church.
2) Spain sublevates, this time it is not only a local problem in northern Castille and Valencia, it is all of Spain, Southern Italy and Milan (no spanish troops in Flanders yet).
3) Catholic parts of Flanders and the French Comté sublevate.
4) Charles decides to put down the problem in Flanders first, the flemish ask France for help.
5) The Ottomans see an open door and decide to go for Viena.
6) The Holy League between Spain, Venice and the Holy See is formed in Italy. The allied army pushes Hapsburg forces out of Italy and are received in catholic areas of Austria as their only hope against the Ottomans.
7) Francis I decides to impugnate Charles as HRE and seeks support between the german princes.
8) At war with France, the Ottomans and the Holy League, Charles is deposed by the German princes as Emperor.
9) The King of France becomes the new champion of catholicism while a portuguese prince is crowned as king of Spain.

[pompejus]

Originally Posted by Condottiero

I think it would spell doom for the Hapsburg:
1) Charles V converts to Reformed Church.
2) Spain sublevates, this time it is not only a local problem in northern Castille and Valencia, it is all of Spain, Southern Italy and Milan (no spanish troops in Flanders yet).
3) Catholic parts of Flanders and the French Comté sublevate.
4) Charles decides to put down the problem in Flanders first, the flemish ask France for help.
5) The Ottomans see an open door and decide to go for Viena.
6) The Holy League between Spain, Venice and the Holy See is formed in Italy. The allied army pushes Hapsburg forces out of Italy and are received in catholic areas of Austria as their only hope against the Ottomans.
7) Francis I decides to impugnate Charles as HRE and seeks support between the german princes.
8) At war with France, the Ottomans and the Holy League, Charles is deposed by the German princes as Emperor.
9) The King of France becomes the new champion of catholicism while a portuguese prince is crowned as king of Spain.

I don't think you should worry about Flanders/the Netherlands. It was the starting place of Dutch protestantism. If the Spanish hadn't wiped out the protestants during the eighty year war they probably still would have been protestant.

[Condottiero]

Originally Posted by pompejus

I don't think you should worry about Flanders/the Netherlands. It was the starting place of Dutch protestantism. If the Spanish hadn't wiped out the protestants during the eighty year war they probably still would have been protestant.

The Walon areas ask help to remain catholic to the king of France... you do not need all of Flanders/Netherlands to remain catholic. Moreover it is enough to have a lutheran emperor and a calvinist Netherlands.

[Advernt]

A French Wank perhaps? Without a Habsburg Counterbalance throughout the 16th to 18th Centuries, and before the emergence of a strong Russia, the concept of a balance of power in Europe might never have arisen. Or, perhaps a more fractured Europe?

[Tocomocho]

Suddenly most (if not all) the German princes that became protestant in OTL turn into devout Catholics more papist than the Pope himself.

[Kaiser Kris]

Originally Posted by Tocomocho

Suddenly most (if not all) the German princes that became protestant in OTL turn into devout Catholics more papist than the Pope himself.

One interesting thing that I've been getting since I started the thread was the notion that having the Emperor convert to Protestantism would actually harm the Reformation, rather than, as would seem logical on the surface, aid it. In other words, was the Protestant movement more linked to various protests against Rome, or the Empire itself?

If it was focused on Rome, then one would think that any patronage of the Reformation by a powerful monarch would be of some utility. If it was, in great part, anti-Imperial, then it's entirely possible that it could destroy the Reformation altogether, and the Habsburg dynasty with it.

The kings of France tell me that they like this thought ...

[Tocomocho]

Originally Posted by Kaiser Kris

One interesting thing that I've been getting since I started the thread was the notion that having the Emperor convert to Protestantism would actually harm the Reformation, rather than, as would seem logical on the surface, aid it. In other words, was the Protestant movement more linked to various protests against Rome, or the Empire itself?

If it was focused on Rome, then one would think that any patronage of the Reformation by a powerful monarch would be of some utility. If it was, in great part, anti-Imperial, then it's entirely possible that it could destroy the Reformation altogether, and the Habsburg dynasty with it.

The kings of France tell me that they like this thought ...

There's another interesting angle to discuss. Spain is by far the place in Europe where the Church is more controlled by the Crown, and their monarchs have had quite some problems when dealing with the Vatican in the past, especially those of Aragon because their traditional anti-French and anti-Genoese policies. Isabella and Ferdinand themselves were excommuniated before a Valencian Pope (Alexander VI) suddenly rehabilitated them and conceded them the title of Catholic Kings.

So why it's so clear that Spain will broke with Charles V while his popularity rises in Germany. It could very well be the contrary: A strongly monarchist Spain that turns devotely Protestant and a pious Catholic (Northern) Germany who fights the Emperor. Nobody expects the Protestant Inquisition, right?

[Condottiero]

Originally Posted by Tocomocho

There's another interesting angle to discuss. Spain is by far the place in Europe where the Church is more controlled by the Crown, and their monarchs have had quite some problems when dealing with the Vatican in the past, especially those of Aragon because their traditional anti-French and anti-Genoese policies. Isabella and Ferdinand themselves were excommuniated before a Valencian Pope (Alexander VI) suddenly rehabilitated them and conceded them the title of Catholic Kings.

So why it's so clear that Spain will broke with Charles V while his popularity rises in Germany. It could very well be the contrary: A strongly monarchist Spain that turns devotely Protestant and a pious Catholic (Northern) Germany who fights the Emperor. Nobody expects the Protestant Inquisition, right?

That control was not so clear. While the Spanish kings (and those of Castille and Aragon) had a control over ecclesial institutions like the Inquisition (which was in fact more political than religious) the spanish church suffered during the days of Cardinal Cisneros something very similar to a reformation. The uses of priests and friars were examined, the formation improved... there were cases (not one or two) of priests that fleeing from Cisneros reformation went to Morocco and converted to Islam. You have a sign of the difference between spanish clergy and that of the rest of catholic countries in the fact that is why most of the catholic theologians in Trent were spanish, that is why there was a School of Salamanca...

Moreover there were already revolts in Castille and Valencia against Charles I. People in Spain did not want a foreigner king, they did not want to get involved in wars in Europe when they felt that their true enemy was to the south. Even the Duke of Alva considered that it was not worth fighting the dutch rebels because they were protestant, if they did not want salvation in the Catholic Church it was their problem. They also felt that having a king that was also HRE could mean their integration in the Empire.

Spanish possesions of Charles V would rebel as a way of freeing from the obligations of the Empire, but they would never follow a foreigner king to break with Rome for reasons they did not understand.

Another interesting question could be whether it was possible to have a Reformed Hispanic Church apart from Rome...

[Matthais Corvinus]

The best way to get a "Protestant" Charles V is to keep Carlos I off the Spanish throne. That the Hapsburg inherited Spain was a total fluke, and many people had to die young and childless for it to happen. If anyone of those people hadn't died, then Spain and its Italian possessions (Naples and Sicily) would have been kept separate from the Hapsburg domain.

Charles V would be ruling the Burgundian Inheritance and the traditional homeland in Austria. Charles V in this ATL could probably be easily convinced of the need to reform the Church, after all he was educated by Humanists in Ghent whose teachings were proto-Protestant, and the political dividends that seizing control of the German Church could bring would be tempting. I think that what you would see is Charles V embrace the reform aspect of Luther's message, and with Luther suddenly finding himself sponsored by the Holy Roman Emperor the more radical parts of the protestant message (married clergy, getting rid of bishops, the whole layiety priesthood thing that provoked the Peasants' War, etc) don't get a mainstream showing.

By embracing Luther, Charles is probably able to forge an alliance with the rising urban classes who OTL embraced Protestantism. An alliance of the monarchy and the rising urban merchants was the basis on which most of the absolutist monarchies of Europe were based, and here the monarchy has the added bonus of taking control of the Church.

So Charles V embraces Luther and carries out what amounts to an "Erasmusian" reform of the Church. Which probably means that war against the suddenly Most Catholic French monarchy is in order.