No 2nd Temple built

[Keenir]

What if Herod the Great decides not to train the priests construction techniques, decides not to rebuild the Second Temple?

Assuming history goes along similar lines to OTL up 'til the Jewish Revolt of the 60s and 70s, would a lack of a Temple to destroy affect how the Roman punishment affects the Jewish people?

[Nicole]

Wouldn't this have severe effects on the Gospels? I seem to recall Jesus going to the Temple a few times. One would presume this doesn't happen? Does he go somewhere else? Do you still have something like the episode of the moneychangers? If so, where? (Of course, WIs involving God can be annoying)

But I don't know, it seems hard to believe that Jews of this time who control Jerusalem would not take the opportunity to rebuild the Temple. (Alright, they didn't do it in 1948, but that's after 1,900 years, things change) It would definitely hurt Herod's legitimacy, wouldn't it? (Then again, that might not be too much of an issue)

If we assume no differences until the Revolt, Jerusalem would still be an important Jewish center, and the Romans would likely still raze it... so I guess there wouldn't be a Western Wall for them to leave either. But I don't know if the Romans would do anything more than they did OTL.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by Keenir

What if Herod the Great decides not to train the priests construction techniques, decides not to rebuild the Second Temple?

Assuming history goes along similar lines to OTL up 'til the Jewish Revolt of the 60s and 70s, would a lack of a Temple to destroy affect how the Roman punishment affects the Jewish people?

No. The Romans' policy with revolts and resisting enemies was to send in the legions so that any one would fought back got nailed to a cross and any one standing next to them got enslaved. They did it to Spartacus's army and they did it to the Iceni here in Britain.

The Jews' grievances with the Romans did not solely depend on the Temple although that did sometimes aggravate the situation. So of the revolts took place in Gallilee and not near Jerusalem.

[Lord Grattan]

1st, the restoration of the temple (building of the 2nd temple) was, according the Biblical record, underway 4-500 years before Herod the Great's reign. So, they've been living w/o a Temple for a long time. That being the case, and considering how important the temple was to OTL Jews of that era, how can you assume that the history of the Jewish people goes along as per OTL through the 60's/70's C.E. when something as significant to them as the temple lies in ruins, never restored? "History" would be different long before then. My guess is that there would be no rebellion in the 1st Century C.E. and so there would be no need for Rome to invade and punish the Jews. The ministry and day to day activities of a certain Jewish rabbi of the 1st Century would also be different (though not his message).

[robertp6165]

Originally Posted by Keenir

What if Herod the Great decides not to train the priests construction techniques, decides not to rebuild the Second Temple?

Assuming history goes along similar lines to OTL up 'til the Jewish Revolt of the 60s and 70s, would a lack of a Temple to destroy affect how the Roman punishment affects the Jewish people?

Actually they already had a Temple...the one which Ezra and Nehemiah built after the Persians allowed the Jews to return from Babylon around 530 BC. Herod just rebuilt and expanded the existing Temple.

Now, if you posit that, for some reason, Cyrus the Persian and his successors never allow them to rebuild it in the first place, and that continues to be the policy right through the entire Persian and Hellenistic periods, then you could have all sorts of interesting butterflies. Possibly the Jews and the Samaritans...who operated a Temple on Mount Gerizim...would find a way to reconcile so the Jews could worship there. Possibly the Jews totally abandon the idea of rebuilding the Temple and Judaism becomes a synagogue-based religion centuries earlier than in OTL.

Some things you won't have in such a timeline...

--No Maccabees.
--No Hannukah
--No independent Jewish State in the 2nd-1st Centuries B.C.
--Probably no Jesus, or (assuming Jesus was divinely ordained), a very different life for Jesus.
--And, of course, no Herod the Great.

[Lord Grattan]

You are absolutely correct Robert. Haggai got the rebuilding ball rolling around 520 B.C. Ezra and Nehemiah came half a century later and finished it, plus rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem..

[Keenir]

I am pleased to stand corrected on Herod's building predecessors (Temple-wise).

I suppose my main point of curiosity centered on the fact that it is the Western Wall that is one of the holiest sites in Judaism.

...and since the Western Wall was part of the Temple complex that Herod built, what the lack of that would be.


(my apologies for being less than specific earlier)

[Orioes]

The Western Wall derives most of its import by being the closest point to the Holy of Holies a Jew can get*. If it doesn't exist I would think a similar site near the HoH would take its place.

*This is a matter of debate some Rabbis/Hakhams say you are allowed to access some/all of the Temple Mount others say no.