Britain Beats Irish Republicans in 1916!!!

[Jason]

Quiet you or not only will we cut your shamrock ration in half, we'll hand the IoM over to Wales

Originally Posted by Shimbo

That "sticky up bit" is where I live thank you very much. If it didn't stick up then I'd be even more oppressed by the British and their tyrannous Royal Family than I already am.

Help! Help! I'm being oppressed as we speak! Huge waves of oppressive Britishness are emanating from their secret bases in the illegitimate six counties regime and spreading across Ireland! I feel an overwhelming urge to have a cup of tea! The fiends!

[Andrew Hudson]

Northern Ireland was designed as a state in which the protestants would have a majority but would also have been a viable entity. Monahan, Cavan and Donegal were predominantly catholic as were Fermanagh and Tyrone so three counties were excluded by agreement and there were provisions for a border commission which Michael Collins erroneously thought would lead to Fermangh and Tyrone joining the republic. Any independant Ulster would have almost certainly had to have been 4 or maybe 3 and a half counties had there been a protestant UDI.

Miltary defeat would have left the problem of the moderate nationalists who had voted overwhelmingly for home rule so home rule would have almost certainly come about possibly leading to seperation as the price of defeating the IRA may have been to strengthen feelings against the crown. Arguably the overeaction to 1916 eventually played into the hands of Sinn Fein with the losers being Redmond's Irish Nationalist Party.

As for the present boundaries, the secularisation of Eire and the growth of the Irish economy EU membership may make the border irrelevant in the not too distant future

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

This brings up something I've been thinking about but didn't think was worth a thread on its own: why in God's name are Northern Ireland and Ulster different? I mean, that little sticky-uppy bit just annoys me.

[MrP]

Originally Posted by NomadicSky

Actually I'd say the whole damn island is rightful property of the Irish people. Those three country and all six of "northern ireland" rightfully belong to government in Dublin.

Not a fan of States' Rights, eh?

[ljofa]

Originally Posted by NomadicSky

Actually I'd say the whole damn island is rightful property of the Irish people. Those three country and all six of "northern ireland" rightfully belong to government in Dublin.

You're absolutely right. And whilst on that point, give us back our 13 colonies.

[Shimbo]

Originally Posted by Jason

Quiet you or not only will we cut your shamrock ration in half, we'll hand the IoM over to Wales

See the true, brute, face of British imperialism reveal itself ladies and gentlemen! I call on you, put this mad dog down before it strikes again!

Not Wales. Anything but Wales...

Originally Posted by Andrew Hudson

(snip)
As for the present boundaries, the secularisation of Eire and the growth of the Irish economy EU membership may make the border irrelevant in the not too distant future

Just as a point of interest, it is near impossible to tell where the border between County Londonderry and County Donegal is even now. The only real sign is that the speed limits change from miles to km per hour.

[MrP]

Originally Posted by Shimbo

Just as a point of interest, it is near impossible to tell where the border between County Londonderry and County Donegal is even now. The only real sign is that the speed limits change from miles to km per hour.

Those things are the only thing I dislike about Eire. Everything else is great - apart from the speed limit signs.

[Shimbo]

Originally Posted by MrP

Those things are the only thing I dislike about Eire. Everything else is great - apart from the speed limit signs.

I just pretend they are in mph. Then I can do 100 mph on main roads and 50 through town. No one seems to mind. They all wave at me. Very friendly people. Always waving. They have a traditional Irish wave, instead of an open palm, they close their hand into a kind of, well fist I suppose, and then wave. Lovely. Friendliest people in the world. One of their special Garda cars (that's like your British Police but less oppressive of course) escorted me home the other night. Flashed his lights and everything, make sure I could get on quickly. So kind and considerate. Charming, charming man. Couldn't really tell what he was saying of course but I'm sure it was very friendly. Wanted me to pop in and see him at his wee 'station' I think, but I didn't like to impose.

[NomadicSky]

Originally Posted by ljofa

You're absolutely right. And whilst on that point, give us back our 13 colonies.

Fine come get them.

[MrP]

Originally Posted by Shimbo

I just pretend they are in mph. Then I can do 100 mph on main roads and 50 through town. No one seems to mind. They all wave at me. Very friendly people. Always waving. They have a traditional Irish wave, instead of an open palm, they close their hand into a kind of, well fist I suppose, and then wave. Lovely. Friendliest people in the world. One of their special Garda cars (that's like your British Police but less oppressive of course) escorted me home the other night. Flashed his lights and everything, make sure I could get on quickly. So kind and considerate. Charming, charming man. Couldn't really tell what he was saying of course but I'm sure it was very friendly. Wanted me to pop in and see him at his wee 'station' I think, but I didn't like to impose.

I think the most touching part of my last visit was when we tried to find a vegetarian restaurant in Waterford (I think), and not only were there three strip clubs, but one was just around the corner from the police station. Er, not touching in the literal sense; that'd be illegal.

[MrP]

Originally Posted by NomadicSky

Fine come get them.

I accuse you of not getting the point.

[Wozza]

Originally Posted by NomadicSky

Actually I'd say the whole damn island is rightful property of the Irish people. Those three country and all six of "northern ireland" rightfully belong to government in Dublin.

Considering how often this has been debate and the facts made clear that really counts as trolling.

Nobody, in their right mind, is talking about the three countries. However if you do not believe in the democratic right to self-determination of the Six I suggest you join the queue marked "Murder and dictatorship rules okay." It terminates somewhere hot I am led to understand.

[Sissco]

Folks, I nevr really looked into the history of my Country, not in great detail.....I often find the history of other states much more interesting! Thanks for looking at my idea tho anyway.....even if it end's up being classed as ASB - As usual!

[stevep]

Originally Posted by MrP

I think the most touching part of my last visit was when we tried to find a vegetarian restaurant in Waterford (I think), and not only were there three strip clubs, but one was just around the corner from the police station. Er, not touching in the literal sense; that'd be illegal.

We'ill avoid asking why you were trying to find a vegetarian restaurant in a strip club.

Steve

[MrP]

Originally Posted by stevep

We'ill avoid asking why you were trying to find a vegetarian restaurant in a strip club.

Steve

According to the map, that's where it was. It wasn't, but I can't really bring myself to hold it against the tourism centre.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hudson

Northern Ireland was designed as a state in which the protestants would have a majority but would also have been a viable entity. Monahan, Cavan and Donegal were predominantly catholic as were Fermanagh and Tyrone so three counties were excluded by agreement and there were provisions for a border commission which Michael Collins erroneously thought would lead to Fermangh and Tyrone joining the republic. Any independant Ulster would have almost certainly had to have been 4 or maybe 3 and a half counties had there been a protestant UDI.

Miltary defeat would have left the problem of the moderate nationalists who had voted overwhelmingly for home rule so home rule would have almost certainly come about possibly leading to seperation as the price of defeating the IRA may have been to strengthen feelings against the crown. Arguably the overeaction to 1916 eventually played into the hands of Sinn Fein with the losers being Redmond's Irish Nationalist Party.

As for the present boundaries, the secularisation of Eire and the growth of the Irish economy EU membership may make the border irrelevant in the not too distant future

I remember seeing a TV programme a few years back - try that makes it marginary less reliable than Wiki. Suggested that Lloyd George played both sides with the partition of Ulster. Presuaded the rebels that the 6 counties would be to small to be viable and hence they would have to ultimately join Eire, so as to get them not to insist on conquering the area by force. Similtaneously presuading the loyalists not to insist on the full 9 counties as that mean them having too many Catholics.

Mind you elsewhere he is also supposed to have pointed out to rebel leaders in negotiations, 'your population is ~3 million. If necessary I can assign each of them a soldier to watch them and prevent them causing problems!' Apparently that concentrated minds amongst the relative moderate leaders that coming to terms and ending the violence was the best approach.

Steve

[stevep]

Originally Posted by ljofa

Whereas the 1916 Easter Uprising didn’t garner much support at the time (after all, insurrection during a time of war is seen as the worst kind of treason), it was its violent suppression which led many of the moderates to side with the rebel’s cause afterwards. If the 1916 Uprising were quietly quelled and the ringleaders not hanged as there were appeals for clemency on all sides then that could have gone more to ensuring that the Irish Free State did not become the Irish republic. I’m not entirely certain that Northern Ireland would have ever wanted to be part of this Free State, not unless the Northern birth rate by far exceeded the birth rate in the south by which a triumph through demographics would be possible.

What is essentially needed for a United Ireland to still be part of the UK in some way, shape or form is for the British to govern with the benefit of hindsight – the government at the time were products of their time and for them to govern in any other way strays into the realms of ASBs.

ljofa

Not wishing to start a flame war but that's one bit I've never understood? As you say 'insurrection during a time of war is seen as the worst kind of treason' and especially given the nature of that war. Britain was involved in what it saw as a life or death struggle. They were shortly to have the bloodbath of the Somme and I find it hard to see how the leadership, or that of any other country involved in the conflict, could have shown much more moderation than it did.

Steve

[MrP]

Originally Posted by stevep

ljofa

Not wishing to start a flame war but that's one bit I've never understood? As you say 'insurrection during a time of war is seen as the worst kind of treason' and especially given the nature of that war. Britain was involved in what it saw as a life or death struggle. They were shortly to have the bloodbath of the Somme and I find it hard to see how the leadership, or that of any other country involved in the conflict, could have shown much more moderation than it did.

Steve

It seems to have been a question of paranoia. Less force was needed to stop the revolution than was applied. It strikes me it'd be an interesting exercise to examine how much the British Army's institutional bias toward Ulster and against the Catholic south coloured General Maxwell's handling of the suppression of the Easter Rising. Ooh, maybe Maxwell is a good idea for Fifth Army . . . or Hamilton. Hm . . .

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by Jason

Quiet you or not only will we cut your shamrock ration in half, we'll hand the IoM over to Wales

Doesn't it technically belong to Scotland?

[Dan1988]

Please, that sounds so Monty Python and also so - George Bush. (Senior, not Junior)

Originally Posted by Shimbo

See the true, brute, face of British imperialism reveal itself ladies and gentlemen! I call on you, put this mad dog down before it strikes again!

Originally Posted by Shimbo

Not Wales. Anything but Wales...

Had enough of this, eh?

[Shimbo]

Originally Posted by stevep

ljofa

Not wishing to start a flame war but that's one bit I've never understood? As you say 'insurrection during a time of war is seen as the worst kind of treason' and especially given the nature of that war. Britain was involved in what it saw as a life or death struggle. They were shortly to have the bloodbath of the Somme and I find it hard to see how the leadership, or that of any other country involved in the conflict, could have shown much more moderation than it did.

Steve

What you say is true IMO, in that the actions of the British Government were understandable under the circumstances. But IIRC the Easter Rising was not initially popular, and what swung Irish public opinion in the Republican's direction was the consequent executions. To my mind, the question is not really "was execution justified under law?", but "was the effect that the executions would have on public opinion in Ireland clear and if so would imprisonment or even internment have been wiser?"

Of course, one of the great WIs of Irish history is what if De Valera or Michael Collins had been executed in 1916, both came very close.