Britain Beats Irish Republicans in 1916!!!

[Sissco]

During the first wrold war Britain had to also fight in Ireland against the flipping Irish Republicans who wanted independence from Great Britain! By 1916 or so a deal was reached that 6 counties would gain their independence and the other 26 counties got their independence!

I've often wondered, however, what If Britain had actually defeated the Irish repubublicans? I know Britian had most of it's troops in Europe at the time but is it even just about possible that Britian could hold out untill after 1918 so that it can free some soilders up by 1919 to send to Dublin to re-take controll of the whole of Ireland again? Would, in 2008, the whole of Ireland still be a part of Britian? Would there have been the sectarian trouble we had from 1969-1999?

BTW, I'm a protestant born and bred and still living in Northern Ireland, so this quiestion and any answers I get would be of great interest to me....thanks!

sissco

[MrP]

Well, the Home Rule Act was supposed to have led to a separate government for the Ireland, but was messed up in part by the British Army being full of Ulstermen. I greatly doubt one can retain Ireland (as a subordinate part of the Union in its pre-1914 form) without a bloody mess and a great deal of suffering, if we're looking at a PoD that's after 1916 - or even one considerably earlier.

I must say I'm not really a politics man, though, and much of my understanding is either general reading related to WWI or peripheral stuff about Hubert Gough, one of the British Army's most-disliked generals.

[Sissco]

Thank you Mr P.....

Can I ask.....do you think that I sissco, as an Ulster Protestant could've been living in some sort of United Ireland, but under British Rule in 2008 or is that a 100% impossibility in todays political climate?

[Zyzzyva]

This brings up something I've been thinking about but didn't think was worth a thread on its own: why in God's name are Northern Ireland and Ulster different? I mean, that little sticky-uppy bit just annoys me.

[Sissco]

NOrthern Ireland and Ulster are normaly used by Unionists, like me, unterchangably however notice one thing from your map....

you see the boundaries of Northern Ireland and the ROI? THAT is Northern Ireland, but you all ALL of that Lighter green area? that, even the Irish themselves will call that Ulster, even though only three counties of Ulster are part of the ROI!

a Little confusing, I know

[Zyzzyva]

Originally Posted by Sissco

NOrthern Ireland and Ulster are normaly used by Unionists, like me, unterchangably however notice one thing from your map....

you see the boundaries of Northern Ireland and the ROI? THAT is Northern Ireland, but you all ALL of that Lighter green area? that, even the Irish themselves will call that Ulster, even though only three counties of Ulster are part of the ROI!

a Little confusing, I know

Er... yeah, that's what I'm annoyed at. Why does Eire have three counties of Ulster?

[Sissco]

Why are you annoyed at that? That's the way the British Governmnet and the Irish people aggreed with the split! By Rights those three irish counties of Ulster belong to Britain!

[Zyzzyva]

Originally Posted by Sissco

Why are you annoyed at that? That's the way the British Governmnet and the Irish people aggreed with the split! By Rights those three irish counties of Ulster belong to Britain!

I'm annoyed 'cuz it makes the border more wiggly than it has any warrant to be.

[MrP]

Originally Posted by Sissco

Thank you Mr P.....

Can I ask.....do you think that I sissco, as an Ulster Protestant could've been living in some sort of United Ireland, but under British Rule in 2008 or is that a 100% impossibility in todays political climate?

I dunno that it was a possibility even in 1914. The Curragh Mutiny I referred to above occurred because many chaps ion the army honestly believed that the government was going to order them to do something unconscionable to their own people. Regardless of whether they were right or wrong, the very fact of that disagreement is substantial in itself. When war came and recruiting began, assurances had to be given to Carson that Home Rule would be at least delayed. Then the Ulster Volunteers signed up (initially produced 2 or 3 divisions, IIRC). Southern Ireland, however, produced comparatively few soldiers.

That suggests that the South was not so warm to the mainland as was the North. Is this because they felt betrayed by the stalling of Home Rule? Is it because they greatly distrusted the North? Is it because they didn't trust the Army? Note that Kitchener let Northern units have Northern officers, but sent Northern officers to Southern units. Is it a combination of these and many other factors? I'd say it's the last, but again I'm no expert.

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

This brings up something I've been thinking about but didn't think was worth a thread on its own: why in God's name are Northern Ireland and Ulster different? I mean, that little sticky-uppy bit just annoys me.

I bet Thande'll know that. I'd guess Catholics in places, but that's just a guess.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

Er... yeah, that's what I'm annoyed at. Why does Eire have three counties of Ulster?

Zyzzyva

Basically because those 3 counties has a catholic/Nationalist majority. As such the south had a claim on their based on the desire of the residents and the north wasn't too unhappy at losing a sizeable number of Catholics that would have weakened their dominance in the reduced Ulster that resulted. [Also a case of a degree of realism or exhaustion, take your pick. Even the extremists on both sides realised that Ulster would be unviable with the Catholic provinces and an Irish Republic would be similarly unviable if it tried to hold all Ulster down by force].

Steve

[Sissco]

I bet Thande'll know that. I'd guess Catholics in places, but that's just a guess.

You have also raised a point....

When in the early 1920's when Ireland was split the Protestant/Unionist politians knew that if they had the whole of Ulster to govern, they may not have had 100% of the vite because if you go to Cavan Monaghan and Donegal you'll find more Catholics there and that would've been bad for the Ulster politians when it came to elections, and that's why Ireland got those three counties of Ulster and Britian kept the other six!

[Ed Costello]

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

This brings up something I've been thinking about but didn't think was worth a thread on its own: why in God's name are Northern Ireland and Ulster different? I mean, that little sticky-uppy bit just annoys me.

I believe that Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan were officially made part of the Republic because they were majority Catholic areas, and thus probably strongly Republican. In other words, had they been part of Norn Iron things would be... ugly.

[Zyzzyva]

Originally Posted by stevep

Zyzzyva

Basically because those 3 counties has a catholic/Nationalist majority. As such the south had a claim on their based on the desire of the residents and the north wasn't too unhappy at losing a sizeable number of Catholics that would have weakened their dominance in the reduced Ulster that resulted. [Also a case of a degree of realism or exhaustion, take your pick. Even the extremists on both sides realised that Ulster would be unviable with the Catholic provinces and an Irish Republic would be similarly unviable if it tried to hold all Ulster down by force].

Steve

Ah. that's more or less what I'd thought. Thanks.

[Sissco]

had they been part of Norn Iron things would be... ugly.

LOL, were do you come from, Ed? I take it I'm not the only Brit on this site?

[MrP]

Originally Posted by Sissco

LOL, were do you come from, Ed? I take it I'm not the only Brit on this site?

Lord, man, where have you been? Brits make up a fair old chunk of the membership. We're second only to the Yanks, IIRC.

[ljofa]

Whereas the 1916 Easter Uprising didn’t garner much support at the time (after all, insurrection during a time of war is seen as the worst kind of treason), it was its violent suppression which led many of the moderates to side with the rebel’s cause afterwards. If the 1916 Uprising were quietly quelled and the ringleaders not hanged as there were appeals for clemency on all sides then that could have gone more to ensuring that the Irish Free State did not become the Irish republic. I’m not entirely certain that Northern Ireland would have ever wanted to be part of this Free State, not unless the Northern birth rate by far exceeded the birth rate in the south by which a triumph through demographics would be possible.

What is essentially needed for a United Ireland to still be part of the UK in some way, shape or form is for the British to govern with the benefit of hindsight – the government at the time were products of their time and for them to govern in any other way strays into the realms of ASBs.

[Shimbo]

Originally Posted by Sissco

During the first wrold war Britain had to also fight in Ireland against the flipping Irish Republicans who wanted independence from Great Britain! By 1916 or so a deal was reached that 6 counties would gain their independence and the other 26 counties got their independence!

I've often wondered, however, what If Britain had actually defeated the Irish repubublicans? I know Britian had most of it's troops in Europe at the time but is it even just about possible that Britian could hold out untill after 1918 so that it can free some soilders up by 1919 to send to Dublin to re-take controll of the whole of Ireland again? Would, in 2008, the whole of Ireland still be a part of Britian? Would there have been the sectarian trouble we had from 1969-1999?

BTW, I'm a protestant born and bred and still living in Northern Ireland, so this quiestion and any answers I get would be of great interest to me....thanks!

sissco

With all due respect, for someone who claims to live in NI you aren't giving the impression of knowing much about Irish history. There's a bunch of reasonably accurate and not too biased either way articles on wikipedia about the Irish War of Independence.

As one of them says: "The 1916 rising was almost exclusively confined to Dublin and was put down within a week."

Also, "an incident on 19 January 1919 sparked off the armed conflict." so your question doesn't make a huge amount of sense I'm afraid.

On the broader question of could the British have won the war, yes is IMO the answer, by the time of the peace treaty the republicans had come very close to running out of ammunition for example. The bitterness caused by the failed war would have lead to worse 'troubles' though IMO.

[Tyr]

I suspect something here....

But until things go further...

The British DID beat the IRA.
Forcing part of your country to stay a part when the majority is against it though isn't the proper behavior of a nice, democratic nation though.

[Shimbo]

Originally Posted by Zyzzyva

(snip) I mean, that little sticky-uppy bit just annoys me.
(snip)

That "sticky up bit" is where I live thank you very much. If it didn't stick up then I'd be even more oppressed by the British and their tyrannous Royal Family than I already am.

Help! Help! I'm being oppressed as we speak! Huge waves of oppressive Britishness are emanating from their secret bases in the illegitimate six counties regime and spreading across Ireland! I feel an overwhelming urge to have a cup of tea! The fiends!

[NomadicSky]

Originally Posted by Sissco

Why are you annoyed at that? That's the way the British Governmnet and the Irish people aggreed with the split! By Rights those three irish counties of Ulster belong to Britain!

Actually I'd say the whole damn island is rightful property of the Irish people. Those three country and all six of "northern ireland" rightfully belong to government in Dublin.