A WWII C&C

[Adam Parsons]

This is from part of an interview with former Westwood Studios head Brent Sperry on Gamespot.com:

"Red Alert actually started as an idea I had for a Command & Conquer game that, in retrospect, would have been in poor taste. What I wanted to do was re-create the whole World War II phenomenon in a C&C game - supergritty and visceral, depicting the worst parts of the war, with the Germans serving as the bad guys. After all, the Germans were, unfortunately, really cool bad guys. They had the iconography, used avant-garde design, and really mechanized the whole idea of warfare."

"I pitched the game to Virgin right after the first Command & Conquer, because I liked the idea of alternating between time periods and somehow tying it all into C&C. I wanted to approach the story of C&C from two ends. "

"As you might expect, Virgin didn't think World War II was cool at all. In fact, the idea went over like a lead balloon. And it was an epiphany for me, because I wasn't sensitized to a lot of the issues surrounding the war. Yes, the Holocaust was a terrible thing, but sometimes I forget how international our games are. If we had done that game, there was no way it would have been sold in Germany. "

So, suppose Westwood had actually gone through, somehow, with a C&C game based in WWII. What would happen, besides endless arguements about the unbalanced nature of the Zyklon Gas Tank? Would this cause a lot of angry sign-waving, or would most accept it?
(Granted, a part of me still relishes the idea of Kane dispaching Hitler in the final movie of the German campaign).

[zoomar]

I've also wondered how games like Wolfenstein, Medal of Honor and Call of Duty do in the the former 1000 year Reich. I can't imagine too many Germans being too thrilled playing Russian guys raising the Soviet Flag over the Reichstag.

[Michael]

Well thousands of japanese are killing virual representations of their grandfathers in rising sun on the ps2, but most games that are sold in germany are edited so that the nazis are someone else (at least that was done for wolfenstein) because swastikas are illegal in germany. But a world war 2 strategy game? It would probably just deal with secret nazi weapons and i think most would accept it, and if you want to play a good ww2 game based on c&c get blitzkrieg although theres a version for ra2 you need the exp pack and there is a version for c&c generals both worth getting in my opinion.

[David Howery]

I don't remember the name of it, but there is a RTS WW2 game out there that operates like C&C...and most RTS games. You gather resources, generate troops out of barracks, etc....

[robertp6165]

Originally Posted by zoomar

I've also wondered how games like Wolfenstein, Medal of Honor and Call of Duty do in the the former 1000 year Reich. I can't imagine too many Germans being too thrilled playing Russian guys raising the Soviet Flag over the Reichstag.

I don't know how well the games do, but I know my friend (who was in the Army up until a few years ago and was stationed in Germany for several years) told me a very interesting story....it seems he and his gal-pal went to the local cinema to see a movie, and they were playing THE DIRTY DOZEN. The theatre was packed. When it came to the scene where the Americans had all those German officers trapped in the basement of the hotel and burned them all alive, the silence in the theatre was deafening...but when the German sniper kills one of the Americans, the audience cheered very loudly. My friend says it was a very UNCOMFORTABLE moment, to say the least. Emotions definitely still run very high in Germany when WWII is concerned.

But then, one of the most popular TV shows in Germany is HOGAN'S HEROES. Go figure. LOL

[NapoleonXIV]

Damn, they play some OLD movies in the cinemas over there.

OTOH when Hitler's Willing Executioners (a book which maintains that the German people cooperated wholeheartedly with the Holocaust, rather than just going along with a dictatorship) came out, the author was quite surprised that his friendliest and most supportive audiences were young Germans, according to 60 minutes

[Jesse]

Originally Posted by michael

most games that are sold in germany are edited so that the nazis are someone else (at least that was done for wolfenstein) because swastikas are illegal in germany.

Who did the nazis become in the German version of Wolfenstein? And are images of swastikas in a fictional historical context really illegal in Germany? I find it hard to believe they'd censor stuff like the Indiana Jones movies (here are the DVDs from amazon.de), and there's no reason to censor Wolfenstein but not that...

[Karl Martell]

I've also wondered how games like Wolfenstein, Medal of Honor and Call of Duty do in the the former 1000 year Reich. I can't imagine too many Germans being too thrilled playing Russian guys raising the Soviet Flag over the Reichstag.

Oh, as for me, I'm perfectly okay with it. I used to play Battlefield for some time, and while I 'prefer' playing as the Germans, I also enjoy playing the other side for a change. Especially if they have better bombers.

The thing is, Americans are so totally into Nazis and WW2, that in any WW2 game the Germans usually have the better stuff and the cooler outfit. The Russians, in contrast, always look crappy and have shitty gear except for their tanks.

The law here in Germany is that swastikas are not to be used for entertainment, but it's okay to show them in ecucational stuff or historical pictures. A game is entertainment and serves no educational purpose. A movie, on the other hand, can be considered educational. OTOH, I have seen very funny comics with large swastikas visible in the background. One of them is the hilarious Walter Moers comic "Adolf die Nazi-Sau".

The motivation behind it is to deprive the Neonazis of their symbols. It people get VERY VERY mad if they see swastikas paraded through streets.

As a nice side effect, if there are no swastikas I do enjoy a game better. I'd enjoy blasting Nazis to hell and gone, but if it's a multiplayer game I would feel very uneasy if my team had a swastika as symbol. In short, I see the swastika as a symbol of all the crimes committed by Germans in WW2 and I don't want to be reminded of that when I play a game.

[Jesse]

Originally Posted by Karl Martell

The law here in Germany is that swastikas are not to be used for entertainment, but it's okay to show them in ecucational stuff or historical pictures. A game is entertainment and serves no educational purpose. A movie, on the other hand, can be considered educational.

Would the Indiana Jones movies be considered "historical pictures"? They obviously contain quite a lot of fantastical elements, and were not really intended to be educational (although the 'Young Indiana Jones' TV show was supposed to be).

[Adam Parsons]

Personally, with regards to a WWII Command & Conquer, they could have done it, but would probably have to walk on eggshells with some of the ingame material if they expect it to sell in Germany. What I mean is, the intro movies will have to be carefully shot, staying away from the controversial stuff, and some typical "bad guy missions", such as "wipe out this village, and kill all the civilians" might not be put in.

[Pax Britannia]

The whole Red Alert world is based on the fact that Einstein went back in time and killed Hitler so that meant the soviets got ideas on Europe and luanched an invasion. If there had been no WW2 wouldnt the map of the wrold look different. In Red alert 2 when you choose a country in skirmish you get shown a map of that nation. Wouldnt countries like Britain and France still maintain their empires? And during the original Red Alert in the campaing map it is a modern map of europe. That wouldnt be right becuase there was no ww2 to insipre such changes. Anyway that has always bugged me.

[ljofa]

Me too. Still, what can you do?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by David Howery

I don't remember the name of it, but there is a RTS WW2 game out there that operates like C&C...and most RTS games. You gather resources, generate troops out of barracks, etc....

Frontline Attack: War over Europe, I believe.

There's also a WWII C&C coming out. It's called War Front: Turning Point, where the POD is Hitler being assassinated early in the war.

[ljofa]

So long as its better than Axis and Allies - that had so much potential but it was horribly, horribly done.

[Tyr]

Originally Posted by Adam

Frontline Attack: War over Europe, I believe.

There's also a WWII C&C coming out. It's called War Front: Turning Point, where the POD is Hitler being assassinated early in the war.

Or anyone of a billion others.
WW2 RTS are horrificly common.

[Thande]

Yes, but it's never been done with a C&C engine (well, except for the independently made Blitzkrieg mods). I for one am looking forward to it.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by NapoleonXIV

OTOH when Hitler's Willing Executioners (a book which maintains that the German people cooperated wholeheartedly with the Holocaust, rather than just going along with a dictatorship) came out, the author was quite surprised that his friendliest and most supportive audiences were young Germans, according to 60 minutes

Which was doubly ironic, considering that outside of Germany, Hitler's Willing Executioners and its author, Daniel Goldhagen, were widely criticized by the academic community, in no small part for ignoring and misinterpreting numerous sources.

Hitler's Willing Executioners maintains that the Holocaust was the result of uniquely German antisemitic tendancies, as opposed to the (IMO vastly superior) book on the same unit (Ordnungspolizei Reserve Police Battalion 101) by Christopher Browning, Ordinary Men, which reaches the conclusion that the Holocaust was a much more universally human event.

[marl_d]

Originally Posted by David Howery

I don't remember the name of it, but there is a RTS WW2 game out there that operates like C&C...and most RTS games. You gather resources, generate troops out of barracks, etc....

it's called Axis and Allies....oops, didn't see that ljofa already posted....