AH Challange -> Biplane Evermore

Well, biplanes are better than monoplanes because they have more wing area stuffed into a smaller width. As a result, biplanes could possibly have evolved to be used in cramped places. Maybe in a cyberpunkish world with huge metropolises with lots of skyscrapers, there would be a need of what is essentially a flying car - that would be a biplane.
 
Well, biplanes are better than monoplanes because they have more wing area stuffed into a smaller width. As a result, biplanes could possibly have evolved to be used in cramped places. Maybe in a cyberpunkish world with huge metropolises with lots of skyscrapers, there would be a need of what is essentially a flying car - that would be a biplane.

The problem with that theory is that by the end of WW2 there were already helicopters and gyrocopters that were even more useful in cramped places.

I suppose you could have the major air forces maintain a biplane as a basic trainer post WW2 but thats about it
 
Yes, modern low-maintenance STOL biplane along the AN-2's lines is viable (what kills AN-2 today is outrageously labour-intensive maintenance schedule, otherwise there's plenty of roles it can fulfil).
 
Labor is potentially ultra cheap in some countries

Alternatively... you don't need maintenance, if you're sending the plane on a 1 way trip filled with suicide commandos.
 
Biplanes are obsolete. It was necessary before engine power and high lift wing devices like slats came along. All things being equal a biplane is capable of still better STOL than a monoplane, but the speed and weight penalty would cancel out the advantage of more powerful and modern engines.

Some have claimed the Saab Viggen is a type of biplane, but I don't think that's what you had in mind.
 
How about this Polish design for a cropduster?

pzl_belphegor_1.jpg
 
How about this Polish design for a cropduster?

pzl_belphegor_1.jpg
Oh yeah, seen that before, I love the thing... only the Soviets or WP could build a jet-powered biplane, :D Just as wonderfully anachronistic and absurd as, say, a nuclear-powered steam train...now there's an idea for the photos from alternate worlds thread... or for a continuation of your British Transport (or whatever it was) timeline, Dean? :)
 
Oh yeah, seen that before, I love the thing... only the Soviets or WP could build a jet-powered biplane, :D Just as wonderfully anachronistic and absurd as, say, a nuclear-powered steam train...now there's an idea for the photos from alternate worlds thread... or for a continuation of your British Transport (or whatever it was) timeline, Dean? :)

You're nagging me again, aren't you?:(
 
You're nagging me again, aren't you?:(
Me? Nagging? Whyever would you think that... :p:D

Heh, seriously, I wasn't. The idea of a nuclear locomotive just suddenly occurred to me, then appealed to me... and you seem the man for the job! By all means continue G&PL if you think more can be done with it, it seems like a nice world to live in :)
 
Biplanes are obsolete. It was necessary before engine power and high lift wing devices like slats came along. All things being equal a biplane is capable of still better STOL than a monoplane, but the speed and weight penalty would cancel out the advantage of more powerful and modern engines.

No, the point of biplanes as a military vehicle was that weight being equal, they had a lower wing load than a monoplane, which means a lower stall speed and a tighter turn radius. This is in turn crucial if the dogfight is made of a slow, tight spiraling course that will bring your aircraft on the tail of the enemy.

But the bomber doesn't need this maneuverability, so it can go mono. And by doing that, you get (in the 1930s) bombers that are actually faster than many earlier biplane fighters. Which kind of kills the concept of the fighter, if it can't catch the bomber up.

The way to keep biplanes in service as the main design for military aircraft is that nobody designs a fast monoplane bomber. Maybe everybody goes for the gigantic bomber. Its defense is not speed, a higher speed than the biplane fighter; it is size itself, with lots of defensive MGs and gunners, and redundacy (say 6+ engines, and, of course, 2+ wing planes). It is big, with a big payload, but slooow. Thus you can retain highly maneuverable, but not terribly fast fighters - and they will be biplanes.

That can hold true for some time. Then somebody will come up with a smaller (and, significantly, cheaper) bomber; much smaller payload, but so fast the fighters can't overtake it.
And that's the end of the biplane fighter too.
 
No, the point of biplanes as a military vehicle was that weight being equal, they had a lower wing load than a monoplane, which means a lower stall speed and a tighter turn radius. This is in turn crucial if the dogfight is made of a slow, tight spiraling course that will bring your aircraft on the tail of the enemy.
But the bomber doesn't need this maneuverability, so it can go mono. And by doing that, you get (in the 1930s) bombers that are actually faster than many earlier biplane fighters. Which kind of kills the concept of the fighter, if it can't catch the bomber up.
The way to keep biplanes in service as the main design for military aircraft is that nobody designs a fast monoplane bomber. Maybe everybody goes for the gigantic bomber. Its defense is not speed, a higher speed than the biplane fighter; it is size itself, with lots of defensive MGs and gunners, and redundacy (say 6+ engines, and, of course, 2+ wing planes). It is big, with a big payload, but slooow. Thus you can retain highly maneuverable, but not terribly fast fighters - and they will be biplanes.
That can hold true for some time. Then somebody will come up with a smaller (and, significantly, cheaper) bomber; much smaller payload, but so fast the fighters can't overtake it.
And that's the end of the biplane fighter too.

Suppossedly when Ernst Udet saw the first German experimental jet fighter (the Heinkel He.280, I think) he quipped, "Very impressive but where's the upper wing?"
 
Oh yeah, seen that before, I love the thing... only the Soviets or WP could build a jet-powered biplane, :D Just as wonderfully anachronistic and absurd as, say, a nuclear-powered steam train...now there's an idea for the photos from alternate worlds thread... or for a continuation of your British Transport (or whatever it was) timeline, Dean? :)

When i was younger , i actually spent part of a boring summer designing part of a nuclear powered freight locomotive. Actually i spent that whole summer designing a whole alternate history around a surviving Great Western Railway , that had steam continue till the late 70s (with their own "standard types") , a high speed line to Birmingham and Liverpool by 2000 , and an experimental maglev system in 2015

I should really write that up one day. I still have all the engineering diagrams at home somewhere
 
The way to keep biplanes in service as the main design for military aircraft is that nobody designs a fast monoplane bomber. Maybe everybody goes for the gigantic bomber. Its defense is not speed, a higher speed than the biplane fighter; it is size itself, with lots of defensive MGs and gunners, and redundacy (say 6+ engines, and, of course, 2+ wing planes). It is big, with a big payload, but slooow. Thus you can retain highly maneuverable, but not terribly fast fighters - and they will be biplanes

This is an excellent observation. Perhaps other, related, factors could have been: (1) greater emphasis on, and adherence to, treaties intended to ban or limit aerial bombing; (2) earlier improvements to ground based anti-aircraft and missiles, making AA (not "pursuit" planes) the main defense against bombing; (3) having the adoption and evolution of combat aircraft evolve within a naval aviation tradition, where low stalling speeds and good slow speed characteristics have clear benefits; (4) as an added AH trick, couple early naval aviation with the earlier development and use of large rigid helium-filled airships as the main means of long range naval scouting and aerial force projection; (5) have all major air powers continue to emphasize dog-fighting skill and success as the only measure of a good fighter pilot - essentially leading to a deliberate policy which retards the adoption of the aerodynamic advances in the same way some militaries emphasized individual marksmanship and were deliberately slow to adopt repeating rifiles and other technological advances which made this less valuable.


All of these, however, are pretty fanciful, as is the basic question. In reality, even if bombers never advanced for the reason above, civil aviation would. Speed, high altitude capability,and brute power has has great advantages there, and eventually at least one aviation power would go that route for transports or recon planes even if bombers remained huge multi-engined biplanes.

However, it might not take many glitches and delays to have WW2 start with everyone still flying biplane fighters, when one considers they were still the standard in 1935 and more were on the drawing boards.
 
The way to keep biplanes in service as the main design for military aircraft is that nobody designs a fast monoplane bomber. Maybe everybody goes for the gigantic bomber.
Chapters in history of the military technologies are written in blood of smart-arses who wanted to implement another designs. So, no slow super-bomber after 1935 for you.
 
Chapters in history of the military technologies are written in blood of smart-arses who wanted to implement another designs. So, no slow super-bomber after 1935 for you.

I never said it would be realistic, and I specifically said it would not hold true for long. And it's not "for me", I'm not dreaming about Supergothas in the 1930s.
 
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