The Heavy Plough- Rome's Answer?

The heavy plough needs to be invented to allow the more intensive settlement of Britain, Germany, etc. If its invented during the Early Empire, then it would allow the continued territorial expansion of the Roman Empire across the Northern European Plain. In any case, its invention and spread before the 3rd century would also help to insulate the Roman population against the Crisis of the 3rd Century (population collapse and subsequent political chaos and end of the Principate/beginning of the Dominate).

I personally think that the population boost that would be gained from this invention would help to keep the Roman Empire going, mainly through expanding and more intensively settling those areas that consider themselves "Roman".

If the population collapse that set off the Crisis of the 3rd Century can be overcome, then the Empire can probably continue. Greater manpower from Gaul, Germany and Britain will allow those areas to better fund and man their own defense, while contributing greater trade and tax revenue to the Empire.

The invention might also allow the Empire to externally settle some of the tribes that attempted to invade the Empire in the 3rd century. With the ability to effectively farm areas that with OTL Roman technology were marginal areas that later in OTL became Europe's bread basket, Poland(-Lithuania) and Russia, would become more important. Perhaps instead of Poland we have Gothia?

As the Han Chinese invented the Heavy Plough, you might want to increase Roman-Chinese trade contact. And as I pointed out to someone in another thread, you could choose to use the high-point of the Principate Era to introduce printing. Whilst having the Romans in Europe make use of the Heavy plough, which not only would decrease the desire for grain exports from North Africa, but allow the population of the Western Provinces to increase, printing would allow the rise in the number of literate men in the Empire, thus the increase of schools and libraries. And in time, Rome will have an expanded pool of potential civil servants, scientists, doctors, and engineers.

The printing press and the heavy plough are just two inventions that could potentially prevented the decline of Rome.

Gallo-Roman estates used heavy wheeled ploughs. It didn't make a difference. Technology like that takes time to diffuse into the population - in this case (hampered by other events, admittedly), around 1000 years.

carlton_bach said:

Gallo-Roman estates used heavy wheeled ploughs. It didn't make a difference. Technology like that takes time to diffuse into the population - in this case (hampered by other events, admittedly), around 1000 years.

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This seems exceptionally long, given how quickly things like new crops can spread.

I wonder what happened?

I thought the heavy plough wasn't seen in Europe until the 7th Century, after the fall of Rome.

Whats the source for the heavy plough being in Gaul during the Empire?

Might there be a different from the "heavy plough" and the iron moldboard plough? The later is what I've always heard/read as the thing that the Han Chinese had, that Rome needed to have better agriculture across Europe.

Nicomacheus said:

Might there be a different from the "heavy plough" and the iron moldboard plough? The later is what I've always heard/read as the thing that the Han Chinese had, that Rome needed to have better agriculture across Europe.

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Thats the impression I was under.

So with this new technology, Rome will be able to better settle its European territory, particulary Britain and northern Gaul. I think you'd see greater Roman expansion north and west, as the technology travels beyond the Imperial borders, and results in wealthier and more populated border areas.

This technology might allow Rome to reach its "natural boundaries" in Europe. With more territory calling itself Roman, do you think the Empire will have enough territorial and population flexibility to continue on?

Matthais Corvinus said:

Thats the impression I was under.

So with this new technology, Rome will be able to better settle its European territory, particulary Britain and northern Gaul. I think you'd see greater Roman expansion north and west, as the technology travels beyond the Imperial borders, and results in wealthier and more populated border areas.

This technology might allow Rome to reach its "natural boundaries" in Europe. With more territory calling itself Roman, do you think the Empire will have enough territorial and population flexibility to continue on?

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I'm not certain the plough would have helped them against first the Gothic invasion then later the Huns.

When the Goths were allowed to settle in Dacia they were treated rather poorly and that seems to be the issue. The treatment they were given was a primary cause in their uprising which brought about the Battle of Adrianople.

A greater population with the plough-Yes. But a population with better scruples?

Nicomacheus said:

Might there be a different from the "heavy plough" and the iron moldboard plough? The later is what I've always heard/read as the thing that the Han Chinese had, that Rome needed to have better agriculture across Europe.

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The problem is, we can't really tell. The heavy plough mentioned by Pliny used a metal coulter and turned the sod (like the Italic 'hook' plough did), but we don't know whether it already had an asymmetric mouldboard. Neither do we know how widespread it was (though there are finds of coulters in the archeological evidence throughout Roman NW Europe).

It appears very likely, though, that this plough actually was a direct precursor of the one that tends to be credited with the agricultural revolution of the Middle Ages. Its lack of success is probably due to being only marginally more effective than established tools while costing a lot more, tying up considerable capital that only paid off where a lot of grainland was worked, and deopending on a technological infrastructure that just wasn't there after the Migration era.

burning down one side said:

I'm not certain the plough would have helped them against first the Gothic invasion then later the Huns.

When the Goths were allowed to settle in Dacia they were treated rather poorly and that seems to be the issue. The treatment they were given was a primary cause in their uprising which brought about the Battle of Adrianople.

A greater population with the plough-Yes. But a population with better scruples?

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The Goths originally were from the area that is now south Sweden. They crossed the Baltic and probably settled in Poland where Gdansk is now (this according wikipedia).

If the Romans discover the improved heavy plough in the 1st century AD, then I think that they can probably expand across Germany through the 2nd and into the 3rd century. This expansion is going to keep the German tribes that started attacking the Roman Empire during the 3rd Century Crisis at more of an arms' length, with more territory between the core imperial territories in Gaul and Italy.

The technology could even keep the Germanic tribes outside the Empire. With the improved technology, the grain-producing areas of Poland and Russia, which were already partially occupied by some of the Germanic tribes who would end up pulling the Western Empire apart OTL (Goths-pre Visi/Ostro split- and the Vandals). So instead of attacking the Roman Empire, the tribes can settle down as the overlords of the local population, running grain shipments to the West and serving as a further buffer against the steppe people who in OTL pushed them across Europe and over the Imperial borders.

Matthais Corvinus said:

The Goths originally were from the area that is now south Sweden. They crossed the Baltic and probably settled in Poland where Gdansk is now (this according wikipedia).

If the Romans discover the improved heavy plough in the 1st century AD, then I think that they can probably expand across Germany through the 2nd and into the 3rd century. This expansion is going to keep the German tribes that started attacking the Roman Empire during the 3rd Century Crisis at more of an arms' length, with more territory between the core imperial territories in Gaul and Italy.

The technology could even keep the Germanic tribes outside the Empire. With the improved technology, the grain-producing areas of Poland and Russia, which were already partially occupied by some of the Germanic tribes who would end up pulling the Western Empire apart OTL (Goths-pre Visi/Ostro split- and the Vandals). So instead of attacking the Roman Empire, the tribes can settle down as the overlords of the local population, running grain shipments to the West and serving as a further buffer against the steppe people who in OTL pushed them across Europe and over the Imperial borders.

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So if the Goths and other Germanics had the access to the Heavy Plough in the First or Second Century CE, not only would successful crop yields give them the sufficient manpower, but they would have been both compelled and able to fight harder against the later Hunnic onslaught.

Lysandros Aikiedes said:

So if the Goths and other Germanics had the access to the Heavy Plough in the First or Second Century CE, not only would successful crop yields give them the sufficient manpower, but they would have been both compelled and able to fight harder against the later Hunnic onslaught.

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OK, so if the Goths settled down and farmed, they would have had a greater population and a better chance at fending off the Huns. Supposing Rome would have been content to leave them as territory and not try to make those areas a province as Augustus did with Germany in HTL (Varro, give me back my legions) then mabey we're in business.

Yet, the Huns were pretty darned brutal, and there were a lot of them. I agree that this TL would have given Rome more room and time before the Huns hit their territory, but once they did would the outcome have been any different?

I never said there wouldn't have been any warfare, only that the nations of Western Europe at the time would be economically and demograghically better off. Plus, if the Germanics and the Romans came into possession of the technology at around the same time, then there is still the matter of whether or not the tribal leaders would pool their resources, or organize their armies to the sufficient standard to fend off the Romans too.

Lysandros Aikiedes said:

So if the Goths and other Germanics had the access to the Heavy Plough in the First or Second Century CE, not only would successful crop yields give them the sufficient manpower, but they would have been both compelled and able to fight harder against the later Hunnic onslaught.

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That was my thought, yes.

This would also do interesting things to Scandinavia. The Migration-era tribes (Goths, Vandals, and Burgundians) seem to have come from Scandinavia. So then the Norse expansion of the 8th-11th centuries was the second time something like that had happened. With the much earlier demobilization of the Migration-era tribes, and demobilizing them in close proximity to their homelands, I think that the states the Goths (Gotaland), Vandals (Vandalen) and Burgundians (Burgundy) create will be seen as part of Scandinavia. These peoples could end up "Norse-izing" the conquered areas, creating a Norse dominated Baltic that is able to assimilate the neighboring slavic tribes, rather than OTL's Norse assimiliation into slavic tribes.

Matthais Corvinus said:

That was my thought, yes.

This would also do interesting things to Scandinavia. The Migration-era tribes (Goths, Vandals, and Burgundians) seem to have come from Scandinavia. So then the Norse expansion of the 8th-11th centuries was the second time something like that had happened. With the much earlier demobilization of the Migration-era tribes, and demobilizing them in close proximity to their homelands, I think that the states the Goths (Gotaland), Vandals (Vandalen) and Burgundians (Burgundy) create will be seen as part of Scandinavia. These peoples could end up "Norse-izing" the conquered areas, creating a Norse dominated Baltic that is able to assimilate the neighboring slavic tribes, rather than OTL's Norse assimiliation into slavic tribes.

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A Pan-Germanic civilization stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Perhaps out of this, a country like OTL Russia is born, but with all the trappings of a prevailing, and evolving Norse culture. Maybe, just like the Varangians of OTL, that manned the trade routes from Novgorod, to Byzantium, and as far as the Caspian Sea, could keep them open longer, thus keeping an enduring European commercial presence on the threshold of Central Asia. If an intact Roman Empire continued to soldier on in this world, along with the collection of Germanic nations gradually colonising the Steppes, what kind of situation would be required to encourage them to send ships out into the Atlantic?

Lysandros Aikiedes said:

what kind of situation would be required to encourage them to send ships out into the Atalantic?

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Slowly growing trade with West Africa prompts them to build trading posts on the Canaries?

What would be Rome's realistic chance of owning the Heavy Plough? Frequent and proper trade contact with the Chinese in the Second century? Or the off-chance that some wealthy farmer with free time on his hands manages to innovate this design?

Lysandros Aikiedes said:

A Pan-Germanic civilization stretching from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Perhaps out of this, a country like OTL Russia is born, but with all the trappings of a prevailing, and evolving Norse culture. Maybe, just like the Varangians of OTL, that manned the trade routes from Novgorod, to Byzantium, and as far as the Caspian Sea, could keep them open longer, thus keeping an enduring European commercial presence on the threshold of Central Asia. If an intact Roman Empire continued to soldier on in this world, along with the collection of Germanic nations gradually colonising the Steppes, what kind of situation would be required to encourage them to send ships out into the Atalantic?

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I was thinking the Romans would get the Germanic nations into the Empire, thus getting their energy to keep the Empire going. If the Germanics take on that kind of role, then their main customer is going to be the Roman Empire. In fact I would say their only customer. The Germanics will be integrated into the Empire, maybe even a dynasty of Germanic Emperors, who oversee a Roman push to the Urals.

As for finding the Americas, I would say fishing fleets are probably the best bet. With larger populations across northern Europe there will be a higher demand for cod and what not. Iceland is settled by fisherman, who in the search for better fishing grounds continue west. Their continued push west eventually lands them in OTL Newfoundland. With the larger populations developing sooner (earlier invention of plow, no fall of the West) maybe they get to America in the 8th or 9th century.

Once the Americas are found, I figure maybe a century passes before the rich lands in the south. The Meso-American civilization(s) will draw Roman attention. All that gold (did they have gold in the 9th or 10th century?). So maybe that takes a generation of invasions. The gold from the Americas could fuel new rounds of expansion for the Romans, finally pushing over the Zagros Mtns and crushing the Persians' Empire.

Matthais Corvinus said:

I was thinking the Romans would get the Germanic nations into the Empire, thus getting their energy to keep the Empire going. If the Germanics take on that kind of role, then their main customer is going to be the Roman Empire. In fact I would say their only customer. The Germanics will be integrated into the Empire, maybe even a dynasty of Germanic Emperors, who oversee a Roman push to the Urals.

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So the Germanic nations become cultural satellites to the north of the Empire?! A commonwealth of client states whom depend on Rome for trade.

As for finding the Americas, I would say fishing fleets are probably the best bet. With larger populations across northern Europe there will be a higher demand for cod and what not. Iceland is settled by fisherman, who in the search for better fishing grounds continue west. Their continued push west eventually lands them in OTL Newfoundland. With the larger populations developing sooner (earlier invention of plow, no fall of the West) maybe they get to America in the 8th or 9th century.

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Once their interest in the Americas piques, I wonder if Rome would take direct control of the new situation, or if the increasing number of trade outposts develop on their own into new political entities. Perhaps eventually, some Helleno-Roman expats wish to replicate the independence of their ancestors by recreating the city-states of Greece in the Carribbean, or along the east coasts of either one of the American continents?

Once the Americas are found, I figure maybe a century passes before the rich lands in the south. The Meso-American civilization(s) will draw Roman attention. All that gold (did they have gold in the 9th or 10th century?). So maybe that takes a generation of invasions. The gold from the Americas could fuel new rounds of expansion for the Romans, finally pushing over the Zagros Mtns and crushing the Persians' Empire.

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Given the events leading up to Roman Americana, Persia might have already been conquered or forced to make favourable treaties with Rome, before contact is made with the Meso-American cultures.

Once their interest in the Americas piques, I wonder if Rome would take direct control of the new situation, or if the increasing number of trade outposts develop on their own into new political entities. Perhaps eventually, some Helleno-Roman expats wish to replicate the independence of their ancestors by recreating the city-states of Greece in the Carribbean, or along the east coasts of either one of the American continents?

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The way the Americas iOTL developed, the non-Spanish European colonial projects were mostly aimed at replicating Spain's success. So the colonies were basically get-rich-quick schemes (which helps account for both the high rate of failure and the refusal to accept it).

I figure that most of the communities are going to be fishing oriented. Founded to take advantage of the outrageously rich fishing grounds off the OTL Canadian Atlantic coast. I think that the slave trade will probably push slavers further down the coast, looking for more exotic peoples to bring back to the Empire. So maybe a few outposts to keep that trade going (Cheasapeak Bay and Manhattan look like good spots). This will eventually lead to contact with the Meso-American peoples.

In the meantime, tobacco might be developed. That would lead to heavier settlement of OTL American states south of Mason-Dixon. It would also lead to the first large-scale slave-based enterprises in the Far West. The locals will have proven their worthlessness as slave labor, it costs too much to import Scythians to the Americas, but Africa beckons with easy navigation and cheap labor.

The Meso-Americans will set off what would probably amount to a gold rush. The Germanics who found it want to take advantage, the Romans want the gold, and there is a lot of Atlantic front real estate being ruled by the Romans, all of whom have Legions, generals, and proconsuls with vision the Purple dancing before their eyes.

Meso-America would be found just about when in OTL the Norse were starting their big expansion. So you could see lightly Romanized Norse (think Normans who speak Latin not French) do most of the conquering and settling for their assimilators.

The Roman Emperor sends over a few Legions, conquers OTL Mexico City, settles the Legions in the Far West, and boom- Roman America. More adventurers end up conquering the other settled peoples in the area, but most of the Imperial focus is on resource extraction. The Americas might be open for settlement, but the Romans have a much closer border that needs bodies on it, the Gothic steppes with its never-ending parade of horse-riding would-be conquerors.

So I think most of Roman America looks a lot like French North America- an enterprise primarily based around getting resources out with as little friction with the natives as possible. The fishing communities on the coast already provide good bases for fur trappers to sell their wares, or for the tribes to bring fur.