WI Medieval Steam Engines?

The Romans were very close to discovering the steam engine, but decided that using horses was still the more reliable method, and indeed it was. We have all seen what if the Romans had pursued it and developed the steam engine.

But this got thinking, what if it remained a failed project for the Romans, but was taken up by both the Arabs and Christian Europe at a later date? Suppose that during the Reconquista Spanish forces come across the plans for the engine in a library in Cordoba. Some Spanish noble decides to fund the idea and what starts as a pet project soon blossoms into something more.

What could that 'something more' be?

This is a frequently seen and discussed WI, but realistically the Greeks were no closer to building a steam engine than they were to getting to the Moon. There is usually an accompanying discussion about the inability to create proper vaccuums and reliable pistons.

David S Poepoe said:

This is a frequently seen and discussed WI, but realistically the Greeks were no closer to building a steam engine than they were to getting to the Moon. There is usually an accompanying discussion about the inability to create proper vaccuums and reliable pistons.

Click to expand...

Indeed.

Furthermore, there actually were primitive steamengine-like devices during the Medieval Ages.

However, all of these devices were so primitive and inefficient (as a result of the lack of proper alloys and various minor technologies and inventions that people tend to overlook), that they were little more than curious little gadgets.

Yeah, it's going to be really hard to do. For starters, you need pistons, which means you need boring, which means you need mass produced cannon... which pretty much by definition takes you out of the Middle Ages.

Rekjavik said:

The Romans were very close to discovering the steam engine, but decided that using horses was still the more reliable method, and indeed it was. We have all seen what if the Romans had pursued it and developed the steam engine.

But this got thinking, what if it remained a failed project for the Romans, but was taken up by both the Arabs and Christian Europe at a later date? Suppose that during the Reconquista Spanish forces come across the plans for the engine in a library in Cordoba. Some Spanish noble decides to fund the idea and what starts as a pet project soon blossoms into something more.

What could that 'something more' be?

Click to expand...

It happens in my timeline... steam power comes into use during a vicious Byzantine civil war in the 14th century (the P.O.D is no Manzikert). During an earlier Italian and Greek renaissance, the neccesary technological advancements are made to permit early steam powered devices, which have evolved into industrial railways by around 1430, and a full railway network by 1500. Take a look if you wish!

Ah, medieval steampunk. My favourite...

Rekjavik said:

The Romans were very close to discovering the steam engine, but decided that using horses was still the more reliable method, and indeed it was. We have all seen what if the Romans had pursued it and developed the steam engine.

But this got thinking, what if it remained a failed project for the Romans, but was taken up by both the Arabs and Christian Europe at a later date? Suppose that during the Reconquista Spanish forces come across the plans for the engine in a library in Cordoba. Some Spanish noble decides to fund the idea and what starts as a pet project soon blossoms into something more.

What could that 'something more' be?

Click to expand...

How would they have had the knowledge or skills to interpret the Greek those plans were written in? The Eastern Roman Empire might possibly have done it, but then there's the question of why that never happened IOTL when an industrial-era Byzantine Empire would probably have been unstoppable and might have even been capable of smashing up the Islamic Caliphates once it was able to free up agriculture with Industrial means.

The best POD would have been for the Romans to have decided to have moved away from the institution of slavery, but that's a powerful hard decision for the Romans at any time.

Zyzzyva said:

Yeah, it's going to be really hard to do. For starters, you need pistons, which means you need boring, which means you need mass produced cannon... which pretty much by definition takes you out of the Middle Ages.

Click to expand...

The Greeks had rather highly advanced use of gears for navigational devices in the Classical Era, IIRC. The Medieval ages are a bad POD, the Classical Age would have been better.

David S Poepoe said:

This is a frequently seen and discussed WI, but realistically the Greeks were no closer to building a steam engine than they were to getting to the Moon. There is usually an accompanying discussion about the inability to create proper vaccuums and reliable pistons.

Click to expand...

I seem to remember they had some sort of water-powered millstones somewhere in France, I may be wrong. It's not such a stretch for this to be used...if the slavery hurdle is decided to be too burdensome. A worse Spartacist revolt, perhaps for the POD?

I think the closest any civilization came to the steam engine prior to the Newcomen engine was the Arabs during the time of that great genius Al-Jazari.

If the Arabs had taken it a little further they would have the Newcomen engine. Then if the Mongols were to spread this throughout the world, I can see the age of steam arriving much earlier - though steam locomotives are still in the distant future.

Basileus Giorgios said:

It happens in my timeline... steam power comes into use during a vicious Byzantine civil war in the 14th century (the P.O.D is no Manzikert). During an earlier Italian and Greek renaissance, the neccesary technological advancements are made to permit early steam powered devices, which have evolved into industrial railways by around 1430, and a full railway network by 1500. Take a look if you wish!

Click to expand...

And awesome it is, too...

Now, write more!

Zyzzyva said:

Yeah, it's going to be really hard to do. For starters, you need pistons, which means you need boring, which means you need mass produced cannon... which pretty much by definition takes you out of the Middle Ages.

Click to expand...

There was a Jesuit missionary named Ferdinand Verbiest who was a hugely influential character in Kangxi Emperor's court. Supposedly he invented a steam powered car in the late 1600s. It used an open steam turbine and so didn't require very fancy metallurgy. Though Newcomen and Watt engines required pistons, turbines are easier to make and much more efficient. We still use steam turbines today in power plants, but the steam reciprocating piston engine has all but disappeared. It's actually kind of strange the first effective steam engine was a piston machine rather than turbine, the latter being well understood since antiquity.

Since paddle wheel ships were long in use in China by then, the logical next step should be to make a steam boat. I guess its just one of those what ifs.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Verbiest