DBRP: Independent Portugal?

[ninebucks]

I hate to bring up this kind of debate, as I know it often gets quite heated, but what do the forumites feel about the Portuguese Independence movement?

Its quite ironic now, as we see Black nations in Africa seek to liberate themselves from White leaderships in Europe, that Portugal, a White nation in Western Europe, is seeking to 'liberate' itself from Brazilian rule, (who, of course, just recently elected their first Black prime minister).

Inspired by this...

Originally Posted by Roberto

Portugal would have ended up a Brazilian colony!

[Nicole]

Quite silly. Yes, sometimes people call it "Brazil" after its largest member and because that's where the capital, but they are part of an equal federation... I mean, you don't see people in Angola, Mozambique, or Macau crying out for independence.

[Thande]

So-called independence movement...the vast majority of them scarcely hide the fact that they don't want an independent Portugal, they want it to join the Iberian Union, and we all know what that means.

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by Thande

So-called independence movement...the vast majority of them scarcely hide the fact that they don't want an independent Portugal, they want it to join the Iberian Union, and we all know what that means.

GAAAHHHH!!!!!

That's probably not going to happen anytime soon.

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Dan1988

GAAAHHHH!!!!!

That's probably not going to happen anytime soon.

You'd never guess that from the fact that the Castilians, Aragonese and Catalans called it that, though. Talk about optimistic...

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by Thande

You'd never guess that from the fact that the Castilians, Aragonese and Catalans called it that, though. Talk about optimistic...

That's true. When the Portuguese find out what they're got themselves into, they will want to go back to the Braganzas.

[Gonzaga]

They are the same people who generally says that to be an "European citizen" is better than to be an Imperial subject. Their claim that Portugal is always forgotten by the Empire is a joke. They just need to remember how important was the support of all the Imperial Territories for the deffense of Portugal during the Great War! You can call me a paranoid, but for me its obvious they are being manipulated by Madrid. Silly kids, when will they realise that to be "Iberian" is much smaller than to be "global"...

[Dan1988]

I agree with you there, Gonzaga.

(OOC: Trying to resist doing an "As you know, Bob . . . ")

[ninebucks]

Originally Posted by Imajin

Quite silly. Yes, sometimes people call it "Brazil" after its largest member and because that's where the capital, but they are part of an equal federation... I mean, you don't see people in Angola, Mozambique, or Macau crying out for independence.

Well, there are a few calling for independence, but of course, the majority of Portogafricans know that without imperial protection, they'd be puppetised, satellitised, or even straight-up annexed by South Africa within months. Many people still remember the Guinea-Songhai War, many even fought in that war, they don't what they're homeland to be the next formerly Brazilian territory to be gobbled up by an expansionist larger neighbour.

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by ninebucks

Well, there are a few calling for independence, but of course, the majority of Portogafricans know that without imperial protection, they'd be puppetised, satellitised, or even straight-up annexed by South Africa within months. Many people still remember the Guinea-Songhai War, many even fought in that war, they don't what they're homeland to be the next formerly Brazilian territory to be gobbled up by an expansionist larger neighbour.

I guess South Africa is downright scary- my guess is that most of the population of Portuguese Africa wouldn't be considered citizens, and therefore have no rights...

But I mean, Macau is maybe a better example? I mean China's not bad- hell, Macau'd probably be better off with China than Peninsular Portugal would be with the Iberians...

[ColeMercury]

D'you think that if the capital city of the FR hadn't been moved from Lisbon around 1960 there wouldn't be a Portuguese independence movement today? Because a lot of this "Portuguese independence" stuff seems to me to be resentment at no longer being the centre of it all.

(OOC: "FR" is short for "Federated Republic", which is short for "Federated Republic of Portugal, Brazil, Angola, Mozambique and Macau", like "UK" is short for "United Kingdom" is short for "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". "Brazil" is like "Britain" - an inaccurate shorthand. And by the way, the idea is that the new capital of the FR is TTL's equivalent of Brasilia.)

[Dan1988]

(OOC: ***head explodes***)

[ninebucks]

Originally Posted by LorienTheYounger

D'you think that if the capital city of the FR hadn't been moved from Lisbon around 1960 there wouldn't be a Portuguese independence movement today? Because a lot of this "Portuguese independence" stuff seems to me to be resentment at no longer being the centre of it all.

(OOC: "FR" is short for "Federated Republic", which is short for "Federated Republic of Portugal, Brazil, Angola, Mozambique and Macau", like "UK" is short for "United Kingdom" is short for "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". "Brazil" is like "Britain" - an inaccurate shorthand. And by the way, the idea is that the new capital of the FR is TTL's equivalent of Brasilia.)

1960 was only the formal disestablishment of Lisbon as the imperial capital, for a hundred years before that Lisbon had fallen out of favours with the empire's, (or federation's, if you will), élites. Portugal hasn't been the centre of it all for over a century.

No, I think that the most important change was the introduction of universal suffrage in 1948, certain Peninsular Portuguese have really problems living under a federal parliament that Blacks can vote for, especially now that there's a Black prime minister as well!

OOC: I'm retconning away the 'federal republic' stuff, as all the previous posts have implied that a constitutional monarchy is in place. I don't imagine 'Empire' being a perogative term in this state, seeing as their head of state is actually an Emperor. For the sake of argument, lets assume that the monarchy is equally popular across the Empire/Federation?

[ColeMercury]

Originally Posted by ninebucks

OOC: I'm retconning away the 'federal republic' stuff, as all the previous posts have implied that a constitutional monarchy is in place. I don't imagine 'Empire' being a perogative term in this state, seeing as their head of state is actually an Emperor. For the sake of argument, lets assume that the monarchy is equally popular across the Empire/Federation?

(OOC: Sure, okay then. And I'm not happy with my super-jumbo name, to be honest, but I had no idea what I could call the thing without including "Portugal" or "Portuguese", to justify people calling it Brazil... actually, "Portuguese" would be OK, especially as people have already referred to "Peninsular Portugal". How about "Empire of the Portuguese Nations"?)

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by LorienTheYounger

(OOC: Sure, okay then. And I'm not happy with my super-jumbo name, to be honest, but I had no idea what I could call the thing without including "Portugal" or "Portuguese", to justify people calling it Brazil... actually, "Portuguese" would be OK, especially as people have already referred to "Peninsular Portugal". How about "Empire of the Portuguese Nations"?)

OOC: Lusation Empire (as in empire of Lusophone nations?)

[Archangel]

Only the fringes want to break with His Imperial Majesty.
The pro-Borbón wouldn’t be so active if they hadn’t Spanish finantial backing.
The socialists are ignored because both the Empire and the Kingdom of Spain brand them as extremists, even though their goal has a lot in common with Spain.
The fact that mainstream Imperial Republicans broke relations with them a decade ago over the issue of Iberism doesn’t help them.

I don’t know what to think of our local branch of the New Republican Party.
They can’t make their mind on whether they want an independent Republic or a Republican Federation.

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by Archangel

I don’t know what to think of our local branch of the New Republican Party.
They can’t make their mind on whether they want an independent Republic or a Republican Federation.

Weren't those the people that were involved in that big financial scandal a while back?

[Imperatore]

I believe that independence movement is simply a show-off. The ones trying to join Spain know that would be the same thing (or worse) than being within the Empire. The others just want some atention. I think that would be wise to have a three capital system, or at least put the head of state living in Portugal and leave the decision/action power to Brazil

[ruisramos]

Make the Cape Verde Islands the capital of the nation and all will be solved.

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by ruisramos

Make the Cape Verde Islands the capital of the nation and all will be solved.

Are you nuts?