AH Challenge: The Sun Never Sets on the Spanish Empire

What would be the most feasible way for Spain to become the preeminent colonial world power, taking the place of England in history? I know there are very obvious PODs, such as the Spanish Armada invading England, but do your best to try to avoid those and be creative.

How would this change history?

AH Challenge: The Sun Never Sets on the Spanish Empire

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If the title was all the challenge, take OTL. They had the Philippines, they had the Americas, they had their Iberian mainland. And the lands are near enough the equator that the gap between Spain and the Philippines is too short to have all the daylight just inbetween but excluding these lands. Otherwise, the sun is shining over the Americas.

The best POD would be to have Charles I give the Netherlands to Ferdinand instead of Philip. Without that sinkhole, Spain has no need to spend 80 years there fighting a war that could not be won, and does not have to build the Armada in the first place. Focusing more on Italy and the Americas, there's a chance that Spain will have a better 17th century.

Get rid of the Hapsburg, either have a POD where Juan de Trastamara survives or another one where Miguel da Paz survives. The second one is best because it gives you an union of Spain and Portugal as bonus.

You would have a Spain (Castille+Aragon+Portugal) more oriented to the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, with less interests in Europe. The spanish mentality of the century regarding the reformed movements was "if they want to go to the hell, let them go there" and they thought the real enemy were the ottomans, it was the hapsburg ideas of a Christian European Empire that made them stuck in wars in the Netherlands, Germany and France that could not be won.

Hannibal.Caesar said:

What would be the most feasible way for Spain to become the preeminent colonial world power, taking the place of England in history?

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To be honest, Spain was the preeminent colonial world power, and England alone never was.

Dr. Nodelescu said:

If the title was all the challenge, take OTL. They had the Philippines, they had the Americas, they had their Iberian mainland. And the lands are near enough the equator that the gap between Spain and the Philippines is too short to have all the daylight just inbetween but excluding these lands. Otherwise, the sun is shining over the Americas.

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Maybe the Spanish empire could be augmented by having Spain claim Portuguese Goa one way or the other, just so they have a presence in South Asia as well as the rest of the world. Perhaps they could also take over Ormuz or Djibouti or some other similar place, and their colonial possessions would make a neat ring around the world.

I have just remembered that the sense of that phrase of the sun never setting down in the spanish Empire was completely different. The idea was that the sun rose and set down for the Alexandrian empire, the romans and others before but that for Spain the the Sun rose but would never set down, that is it would last forever. The idea should be to have a longer lasting Spanish Empire, surviving with its essential parts into the XX century.

Condottiero said:

Get rid of the Hapsburg, either have a POD where Juan de Trastamara survives or another one where Miguel da Paz survives. The second one is best because it gives you an union of Spain and Portugal as bonus.

You would have a Spain (Castille+Aragon+Portugal) more oriented to the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, with less interests in Europe. The spanish mentality of the century regarding the reformed movements was "if they want to go to the hell, let them go there" and they thought the real enemy were the ottomans, it was the hapsburg ideas of a Christian European Empire that made them stuck in wars in the Netherlands, Germany and France that could not be won.

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I agree wholeheartedly, without the Hapsburgs, Spain would be MUCH better off without the Hapsburgs, having avoided the 80 years war all together not to mention the wars of religion in the 17th century. With the addition of Portugal due to Miguel da Paz the Treaty of Tordellias becomes somewhat of a moot point. I could easily see such a Spain dominating the world quite easily given the immense resources at it's disposal. However unless they figure out a way to reform their economy and promote a middle class they are doomed to failure.

Perhaps the best POD would be eliminating the Spanish Inquisition thereby maintaining the middle class.

Oh and Land reform probably wouldn't be too bad of an idea either focusing on Agriculture etc.

Fearless Leader said:

I agree wholeheartedly, without the Hapsburgs, Spain would be MUCH better off without the Hapsburgs, having avoided the 80 years war all together not to mention the wars of religion in the 17th century. With the addition of Portugal due to Miguel da Paz the Treaty of Tordellias becomes somewhat of a moot point. I could easily see such a Spain dominating the world quite easily given the immense resources at it's disposal. However unless they figure out a way to reform their economy and promote a middle class they are doomed to failure.

Perhaps the best POD would be eliminating the Spanish Inquisition thereby maintaining the middle class.

Oh and Land reform probably wouldn't be too bad of an idea either focusing on Agriculture etc.

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Inquisition has nothing to do with that question. There were spanish bankers in Seville, Valladolid and Medina del Campo, there was also an incipient textile industry (with extraordinary raw matherials) and a captive market in the Americas... what was the problem? The Inquisition?

Nope.

The problem where the wars in Europe. The Spanish kings when facing hard times the first thing they did was to go to Seville and to Valladolid and to empty the boxes of the bankers destroying the finantial activities in Spain. When facing England decided to ruin the english wool producers by having the exclusivity providing the Flemish textile "industry" and killing the castillian one.

As for agriculture, there the problem was mostly the expulsion of the Moriscos but mainly the Americas. It was more profitable to produce wine to export to the Americas than to produce grain...

Maybe you could have the American revolution fail. That revolution inspired the revolutions in South America. That revolution could scare the Spanish into reforming and giving their colonies more autonomy and more rights for the people living there. It could evolve into a commonwealth with the colonies becoming Dominions that recognize the Spanish king as their head of state. If Spain doesn't learn from Britain's mistakes and sticks with its old habits then they'll still lose their empire maybe a decade or two later.

If you can keep Spain out of its incessant 16th and 17th century wars against anyone and everyone in Europe (France, Italian Wars, the Ottoman Empire, the Netherlands, England etc.) and thus prevent is serial bankruptcies you should be golden. Somehow avoiding the Hapsburgs or the Reformation should do the trick quite nicely.

Onkel Willie said:

Maybe you could have the American revolution fail. That revolution inspired the revolutions in South America. That revolution could scare the Spanish into reforming and giving their colonies more autonomy and more rights for the people living there. It could evolve into a commonwealth with the colonies becoming Dominions that recognize the Spanish king as their head of state. If Spain doesn't learn from Britain's mistakes and sticks with its old habits then they'll still lose their empire maybe a decade or two later.

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But according to Spanish Law they were not colonies. The people living there had the same rights than the people living in the European possesions of the Spanish Crown (in fact the natives were more protected than after the independence of the american republics). If there were problems was with the creole and european population that wanted more rights than the amerindians and poorer classes!

The only thing that could have been done to keep the unrest down would have been to abolish the "Leyes de Indias" and to convert the american possesions in full colonies giving the upper classes the privileges they wanted, but then you would have had amerindian unrest.

Hannibal.Caesar said:

What would be the most feasible way for Spain to become the preeminent colonial world power, taking the place of England in history?

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Converting to Protestantism?

Ferdinand Koenig said:

Converting to Protestantism?

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And the implications of this decission are...

The main problems for Spain to survive as a colonial empire were sticking to european wars far away from her borders, falling to the temptation of the american silver, that caused a lack of industry in the peninsula, social conflicts between the creole and amerindian population (the first ones considered that the crown protected the amerindians too much and that limited the trade with England, Netherlands and France)...

If Spain is protestant, what changes in those aspects?

Not much, in and off itself.

Being protestant (if nothing else changes) just means that Spain will be on the opposite side of some religious battles. Protestantism, in and of itself, isn't going to magically wipe away rivalries with England or France for overseas colonies, or independence drives in the netherlands, or opposition from the ottomans/moors across the mediterranean.

I think the POD of avoiding Hapsburg involvement, preferably via personal (and later actual/permanent) union with Portugal would be a better start. A Spain convinced that Europe north of the Pyrennes (you can throw in the Alps if you want to keep some of the tercios 'feel' to things) isn't worth the bother would save vast amounts of energy & treasure that could be better applied elsewhere.

A second PoD would be preventing the English buccaneers from seizing their original carribean beachhead (in Jamaica IIRC?). That greatly reduces the piracy tax on the gold fleets as well.

A third/fourth PoD would be a more unified Iberia earlier, leading to a smoother/faster reconquista, which provides the background for avoiding things like the various expulsions (jews, moriscos, mozarabes, etc). Provided the otherwise expelled are effectively integrated into Iberian society & culture, the saved human resources would provide a variety of unforseen but cumulative incremental boosts.

The classic approach to this, of course, is a successful armada, tercios running roughsod over perfidious Albion, and the Spanish crown ruling the Americas from pole to pole, and picking up whatever chunks of africa/asia the BE had managed to pocket up to that point.

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it would have been unthinkable that spain would have remained neutral in the religious wars that embroiled europe

secondly if you propose that spain avoids marrying into the habsburg quagmire, the same logic would have prevented them from ever
becoming a big power

thirdly the territories in the low countries were a great scource of wealth

finally for your proposal to work the social foundations of spain would needed to be different
the english and dutch colonial preeminence were based on the strenght of their mercantile class
in both cases their empire were held together by buisness arrangements backed up by naval power
witness the cruelty of the spanish in central america, totally unbuisness minded

Might have to give you the first one, though certainly ways could be found to reduce their level of involvement.

secondly if you propose that spain avoids marrying into the habsburg quagmire, the same logic would have prevented them from ever
becoming a big power

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Not sure how this follows. A Spain that owned All or most of the Americas, dominated the western Med (at least after Lepanto), and had colonies along the African/Indian littorals as well as various bits and peices of Oceania is certainly going to meet the OP's criteria, even it they never had a significant peice of trans-pyrennean Europe. Heck, the BE itself had no official continental holdings during the height of british power - would you say the pink blob wasn't a great power?

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your missing the point
spain didnt get to the point of power you outline
it couldnt have avoided the wars of religion, if it hadnt taken part it would have declined even quicker
you present a view of history that is anti historical
massive social forces pushed spain in the direction it went
the BE was a trading venture, it generated enormous commercial influence
and provided part of the ground work and rescources for the industrial revolution
spains plundering of lands they conquered was socially backward because the class relations dominating in spain were backward compared to those of england and holland, they just couldnt generate the wealth and social mobilization necessary to remain a world power
they were left behind by history
look at protestantism, the growth of capitalism and the rest

thirdly the territories in the low countries were a great scource of wealth

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and even greater loss in terms of treasure and manpower to control and defend.

witness the cruelty of the spanish in central america, totally unbuisness minded

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what are ye babblin' 'bout lad? Business minded? Spain viewed the entire colonial enterprise as a source of revenue - hard to be more business minded then that. Cruelty in central america? Read much about tasmania? About what the ever so loving english did to the indians in N Am even before we yanquis spun off?

As for the mercantile class being crushed in spain - it was the taxes to support wars in the netherlands that crushed the spanish banking and mercantile classes. Heck, the various expulsions were as much or more about revenue seizure and debt cancellation as about any religious impulse.

(1) spain didnt get to the point of power you outline
(2) it couldnt have avoided the wars of religion,
(3) if it hadnt taken part it would have declined even quicker
(4) you present a view of history that is anti historical
massive social forces pushed spain in the direction it went
(5) the BE was a trading venture, it generated enormous commercial influence
and provided part of the ground work and rescources for the industrial revolution
(6) spains plundering of lands they conquered was socially backward because the class relations dominating in spain were backward compared to those of england and holland, they just couldnt generate the wealth and social mobilization necessary to remain a world power
they were left behind by history
(7) look at protestantism, the growth of capitalism and the rest

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so many errors, so little time. I've added numbers to make keeping track of this simpler.

1. A. Duh - which part of AltHistory and PoD are escaping you?
1. B. Funny - my impression was that Spain did establish colonial control over most of the Americas, over large portions of the north african coast, and over isles as far away as the phillipines. Throw in portugese possessions in africa, india, indonesia, and brazil and you have an empire easily matching if not exceeding the size and scope of the pink blob. And that is before taking into account any synergistic effects.

2. So what? England didn't avoid them either, nor did any other part of Europe. The point is it could have played a different/smaller role quite easily - most simply by not attempting to own and hold a sizable chunk of the protestant north. Or, change the winds slightly on a certain evening way back when and the tercios are warming their boots in Buckingham palace. History wasn't as inevitable as you seem to think. Again - alt (as in alternate) history.

3. What the flocking heck? By not wasting vast amounts of mean and treasure, by not overtaxing it's populace and industry, by not focusing it's energies on a losing battle which encouraged totalitarian outbursts at home, instead of following, oh, england's example and focusing it's energy and best minds at home or on it's colonies, Spain would have declined 'faster'. By what possible rationale?

You are seriously arguing that policy of wasting everything on trying to force the netherlands to be or remain catholic in support of Hapsburg pretensions somehow helped Spain? Maybe in bizarro world.

4. Again, alt history. As for the massive social forces - do note PoD's 3/4 - change the way the reconquista took place, and you change those massive social forces dramatically.

5. All the empires were trading ventures to one extent or the other. The difference for the BE is that their empire was going strong when a confluence of factors kicked off the latest flowering of economic & technical innovation.

6. Right, because England did it's plundering at one remove - hiring out privateers to plunder spain's gold fleet. Heck, there was a royal mint in Jamaica - the second British one in the planet - because of all the plundering they did. As for social relations - those enlightened social relations seem to have escaped all the english who were complaining about them at the time and even latter. Heck, one could easily argue that one of Spain's problems with it's colonies is that its social relations were too enlightened. Treating the colonies as parts of spain proper, and forbidding chattel slavery. England went the other way, and was able to be more successful as a result.

In addition, the fact that england didn't have to worry about land invasions, and could devote more energy to it's fleets and shopkeepers might have had some small effect. Here's a pod for the ASB forum - raise the pyrennes to the height of the himalayas, and see what happens to Spanish history.

7. Right - protestantism, Or, in the case of england, expropriating church assets and wiping out monastic learning and engineering so that the king can get divorced. Not clear on how absolutism leads inevitably to freedom. But hey, it's not like those ig'nant papists ever had any discoveries or merchant classes worth mentioning.

Oh wait, wasn't Italy catholic? Hm.. yes it was. Wasn't Italy the heart of the renaissance? Ah - yes it was. Didn't Italy invent banking and large chunks of modern capitalism? Huh - yes it did.

Oh well.

But that's ok, let's not let some piddly little facts distract from your grand discourse of the glories of divorce, piracy, slavery, concentration camps, biological warfare, and the inevitable triumph of the suitably pallid.

boredbydrivel

you show no understanding of the historical forces at work
your reply is a distortion of facts, a misinterpretation of history and a glib
euphoric rant
the fact is that spainish society was backward compared to england and holland
you cant compare the economic / commercial developments with the backward plundering of spain of gold
for all the wealth they stole they had no mechanism for converting it into a modern bourgeoise society
you ignore how spain avoids the religious wars and suggest the portugese empire just lands in the lap of spain like a christmas present
life isnt like that
its a childish view of history that takes no account of the social forces involved
or the dialectical processes that led english commerce to be dominant world wide