Importance of Operation Chariot?

[Shurik]

A question for all the WWII buffs out there:
My understanding is that the only dry-dock capable of handling the Turpitz outside the immediate range of the RAF, and on the Atlantic coast was in St. Nazaire. There was a real fear that if she was able to get there, and attack shipping in the Atlantic... well, that would be a problem. As such, Operation Chariot was launched to destroy the facility, and hence: render the Tirpitz as "The Lonely Queen of the North": basically useless. The raid was extremely daring, and a number of things went just right for them to accomplish it. As an example, I understand the destroyer with the bomb was original headed in the wrong direction, but it was only a chance sighting of the correct light house, that they were able to change direction at the last moment and hit the gates.

Let's say, one of a hundred things that could have gone wrong did, and the raid failed. As a consequence, the Tirpitz is indeed moved there, and is able to get into the anti-convoy action. Would it have made much of a difference, or could the RAF really have just knocked it out, and things continue as OTL?

[CalBear]

A single ship was never going to be a war changer, not in the '40's (now a SSBN...).

It could be argued (and probably has been somewhere in this forum) that the Tirpitz was far more useful as a threat than she would ever have been as an actual raider. The British spent an amazing amount of effort trying to sink her before the finally succeeded, losing at least 12 heavy bombers and 18 carrier aircraft (it might be more, but the data is somewhat contradictory) in the many raids made against the ship. The time effort and resources used, especially in 1942-43 could have found far better use than attacking a single ship.

If she had actually ventured out into the Atlantic she had, at best, three months before she was found and destroyed. Beside the Royal Navy, who likely would have found, fixed, and defeated her on her first or second sortie, had she sailed into the North Atlantic in 1942, she would have faced equally modern American battleships, and, far more importantly, American carriers. Any American carrier, even the much disrespected Ranger carried more, and better, aircraft than their RN counterparts

frex: On 12/7/41 Ranger was near Port-a-Prince, Trinidad, her airwing on that day included 36 F4F Wildcat fighters, 25 SB2U Vindicator dive bombers, and three TBD torpedo planes for a total of 64 aircraft. The Vindicator, while not exactly the equal of the Dauntless, was a decent enough attack plane, assuming you didn't have to worry about fighters.

Against a single warship, even a BB, or a couple of ships, 25 dive bombers is a real mob. While the 1,000 pound bombs the planes hauled around might not individually sink or disable Tirpitz a dozen or so, along with some near misses, would have pounded the ship into scrap. Who knows, one or two of the TBD's might get lucky and put a fish into her (they managed to hit Shoho seven times at Coral Sea). This, of course, assumes that the North Carolina and Washington or any of the many British battleships don't happen upon her. If that happened, the fight might be a good one, although given Washington's gunnery display at Guadalcanal and the fact than the North Carolina was equipped with the same fire control set-up, it might not have been much of a fight at all.

So to finally answer the original question, the overall impact would be minimal.

Throw one of these three carriers: Yorktown, Wasp and Hornet and its easy to see what the fate of any surface raider was going to be once the U.S. entered the war.

[Shurik]

Thanks. That was my assumption, but I thought I'd throw it out here and see.

[Slamet]

Really, the Tirpitz, in fact the whole surface BB fleet of the Kriegsmarine were useless. How much do you expect to accomplish with 2 battleships?

The Tirpitz would've been better used for raiding the Russian convoys. She had air protection (bases in Norway) and the Allies didn't.

[burmafrd]

the only window of oppurtunity was really late 1940, early 1941 for the German surface ships to be effective. Now if the Tirpitz had been completed earlier, and teamed up with the Bismark, Scharnhorst, Gneisanau, Prince Eugen and some DDs, along with the Deutschland, and they had all sailed then scattered to hunt on their own, it would have been a bad 2-3 months for the British.Any one of those ships catching a convoy would destroy it; and as shown by the Bismark, sinking them was even more of a problem. And scattered like they were the Brits would have had to partial out their ships in hunting packs, and none of the packs would have had overhwhelming power on their side as they did when the Bismark was out by itself. And if at the same time Doenitz had concentrated all available UBoats to attack as well, it could have gotten pretty bad for the Brits.

[MUC]

The only problem was that most Germans ships were either not completed or busy getting repaired after RAF air raids.

[burmafrd]

Tirpitz was not completed but could have bee n if more effort was put forth. Scharnhorst and Geneisanu (sp?) were ready at the same time Bismark came out. So of course was Deutchland and Prince Eugen.
And there were some destroyers as well. So it COULD have been done= if Hitler had had any real interest in the Navy. If for a period of 2 months the atlantic had been closed to Britain, it would have been a huge blow.
Especially if they could have done this while the Crete disaster was going on. With Rommel causing trouble in the Middle East, along with crete and the Greek debacle, this kind of hit to the lifeline of Britain MIGHT have weakened churchill and had other effects.

[Barry Bull]

Originally Posted by Slamet

Really, the Tirpitz, in fact the whole surface BB fleet of the Kriegsmarine were useless. How much do you expect to accomplish with 2 battleships?

The Tirpitz would've been better used for raiding the Russian convoys. She had air protection (bases in Norway) and the Allies didn't.

Well, the WWII German Navy didn't expect to go to war with only 2 BBs...Plan Z called for more and the then naval leadership had told Hitler that the navy can only 'try to go down with dignity' if war started in 1939.

[CalBear]

Originally Posted by Barry Bull

Well, the WWII German Navy didn't expect to go to war with only 2 BBs...Plan Z called for more and the then naval leadership had told Hitler that the navy can only 'try to go down with dignity' if war started in 1939.

Really wouldn't have mattered. The RN could out build the Germans at about a 4-1 ratio, given ship yard capacity, as could the U.S.

This is the actual German Plan Z construction schedule. I have included the U.S. counterpart, as well as a sketchy version of the RN plan (with which I am, admittedly not as conversant). As you will see, the Germans were living in a dream world.

Kriegsmarine per Plan Z (available 1945)

Four carriers – 33,500 tons 16x150 mm (6 inch), 20x105 (4inch) AAA, 20x37mm AAA, 24x20 MM AAA 50 aircraft air wing projected- 10 fighters 20 Stukas (navalized) 20 Fi-167 biplane torpedo bombers (navalized)

Total strike force available 40 fighters, 80 dive bombers, 80 torpedo planes

Six H Class BB (2 Bismarck & 4 super Bismarcks) 8x16” (406mm), 12x6” (150mm) anti ship, 16x4” (105mm) AAA, 16x37mm AAA, 24x20mm AAA, 6 21” torpedo tubes

Three O Class BC 6x15” (MM), 6x6” (150mm) anti-ship, 84’ (105mm) AAA, 12x37mm 20x20mm, 6 21’ torpedo tubes

10 Panzerschiff (pocket BB or large Heavy cruisers) 6x11” (260mm), 6x6” (150mm) anti-ship, 4x4’ (105mm) AAA, 4x37mm, 12x20mm, 6 21’ torpedo tubes

Two Hipper Class CA 8x8” (203mm), 12x4’ (105mm) AAA, 12x37mm 8x20mm,12x21’ torpedo tubes

Two M & Four improved M CL 8x6” (152mm), 4x3’ (88mm), AAA, 8x37mm, 6x20mm,
8 21’ torpedo tubes

Six Spahkreuzer “Large” Destroyers 6x6” (152mm), 2x3’ (88mm) AAA, 8x37mm, 8x20mm, 12x21’ torpedo tubes

Regular DD total around 40

Total Force, not including standard destroyers, four carriers nine capital ships (carrying total of 54 Main Guns), 14 cruisers (including the 6 rather odd “Large” destroyers), 40 destroyers

This was supposed to be the German Navy in 1945.

Here is the USN, as ordered (not as actually completed, as ordered for completion by 1945)

Aircraft carriers
5 Midway class carriers 62,000 tons 18x5”/127mm 100+ 40mm & 20mm Guns110 aircraft (54 fighters, 36 dive bombers, 36 torpedo bombers) in standard air wing

34 Essex class 36,000 tons 12/5”/127mm DP, 36x40mmAAA, 36x20mm AAA 36 fighters, 36 dive bombers, 24 torpedo planes (96 aircraft per standard air wing)

4 Yorktown (+ one modified Yorktown) class 36,000 tons 18x5”/127mm DP, 24x40mmAAA, 50x20mm AAA 82 aircraft (36 fighters, 32 dive bombers, 24 torpedo planes) per standard air wing

9 Light Carriers 34 aircraft (25 fighters, 9 torpedo planes) in standard air wing

Total strike force available 1889 fighters, 1564 dive bombers, 1116 torpedo planes

Battle Ships (total) 17- Five Montana Class (12x 16”/406mm), Six Iowa Class (9x16”/406mm), Four South Dakota Class (9X12”/406mm), Two North Carolina Class (9x16) Secondary armament 16-20 127mm DP Guns Anti Aircraft 60-80x40mmAAA, 30-50x20mm AAA

Large Cruisers (Panzerschiff) Alaska Class Six ships (9x12”) 12 5” (127mm) DP 56x 40mm AAA, 34x20mm AAA

Heavy cruisers total, various classes 30+ all carry 9x8”/203mm with Secondary of 8-10x5”/127mm DP and 30-40x40mm AAA & 15-25x20mm AAA

Light Cruisers total various classes 40+ all carry 15x6 6”/155mm 8x5”/127mm DP 12-16 40mmAAA 12-16x20mm AAA

CLAA Cruisers four ships 16x5”/127mm DP, 16x40mm AAA, 8x20mm AAA

“Large” Destroyers Sumner Class 58 Ships 6x5”/127mm 12x40mm, 11x20mm 10x21” torpedo tubes

Regular destroyers total around 300.

“Old” battleships not included in above force although they would be an over match for everything except the H & O classes and at least the equal of the “O” class in all areas but speed.


Total Force, not including standard destroyers, 44 fleet carriers, 17 capital ships (carrying total of 180 Main Guns), 75 cruisers & 63 “large” destroyers and AAA cruisers.

Royal Navy (New construction only 1937 on)

Aircraft carriers 10 (Fleet only): 4 Illustrious, 2 Implacable 4 Audacious Roughly 500 aircraft

Battleships: 10 5 George V, 4 Lion, 1 Vanguard

Light Cruisers: 54 (the RN didn't really do heavy 8" cruisers)

Destroyers: 172 of various classes

AAA Frigates: 26

There are also well over 200 Frigates that are not included, as they were not designed to act as part of the main fleet (they lacked torpedo tubes, although their gun armament was the equal of the German DD classes).

The British also had a rather substantial force of "old" Battleships & Battle Cruisers which would have been an over match for the German BC and panzerschiff designs.




So to recap

USN
44 Fleet carriers & 9 light carriers mounting 4579 combat aircraft
17 Battleships
5 “Large” cruisers
75 CA & CL
63 “Large” destroyers & CLAA
300 destroyers

Kriegsmarine
4 Fleet carriers mounting 200 combat aircraft
6 battleships
3 Battle cruisers
10 “Large Cruisers
8 CA & CL
6 “Large” destroyers
40 destroyers

RN
10 Fleet carriers mounting 500+ combat aircraft
10 Battleships
54 CL
26 AAA Frigates
172 destroyers

[pacifichistorian]

Originally Posted by Shurik

Tirpitz is indeed moved there, and is able to get into the anti-convoy action.

Hitler would never have let her be used after Bismarck. And she was a big threat right where she was.

[Astrodragon]

One point, calBear.
The British OTL build was heavily influenced by the need for convoy escorts. In this timeline (no war till 45), they would have built far more heavy fleet units instead of teh frigates.

[PMN1]

If the RN had got lucky at the beginning of March 1942 and sunk Tirpitz as she attempted to find PQ12 is there anything else at St Nazaire that would justify an attack even on a smaller scale.

Does no St Nazaire raid have any effect on later operations?