As Befits a King - The Brainstorm

So, I've got a new timeline cooking up, and it's a concept that has interested me for a very long time, and that concept is the survival of Alexander the Great. He was 32 at the time of his OTL death, and I'm assuming he lives 30 more years. Difficult, given what Alexander put his own body through, but justifiable. (Ptolemy I Soter, Alexander's most trusted general, was born around 12 years before Alexander, and lived to 283 BC dying at the age of 84.)

I'm working on what I know of Alexander: He was a conqueror, he was a man that never rested. He wanted to go to the mouth of the Ganges until his men mutinied. So had he lived for 30 more years, you could easily bet that he would be spending most of those 30 years on campaign.

Now, there's some conflict with regards to what Alexander was preparing to do when he arrived in Babylon in 323 BC. One source claims that he was preparing to conquer Arabia. (Strabo, Geography 16.1.11) Another source says the same thing. (Arrian of Nicomedia, Abanasis 7.19) Another source however goes on to say that he was preparing a grand fleet for eventually conquering Carthage (along with her Iberian holdings) and Sicily. (Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca historica, 18.4.1-6)

All of these were, of course, written very long after the fact, and could very well be entirely conjectural. Or not.

Another thing that grabs my attention is that in the very same time period, India was going through radical changes. The Nanda Dynasty was in its death throes, its king hated and his hold on the throne tenuous. Indeed, according to Plutarch, Chandragupta Maurya actually met Alexander while he was in India as a boy, and would later remark that had Alexander continued he would have easily overthrown the hated Nanda king.

Chandragupta however was unable to do anything at the time, and would have to wait until after the death of Alexander to invade the Indian Hellenic satrapies in order to create enough of a power base for himself to take on Dhana Nanda.

A few questions thus have arisen in my head with regards to how to BEGIN this Timeline. (Beginning's always the trickiest part.)

1) What is the more likely next target for Alexander? Arabia, or something further west?

2) Who truly hated Alexander? I know Cassander, son of Antipater (regent of Macedonia), was famed for despising Alexander's memory after his death. It was even rumored that Cassander had poisoned Alexander (though most research seems to indicate that Alexander was NOT poisoned). Was there anyone else who truly despised the great conqueror?

3) Who loved Alexander? Who would have done anything for him? That is to say, who was loyal?

4) Would Chandragupta Maurya dared move against Alexander's empire while he was still alive? Or was it Alexander's death that gave Chandragupta Maurya the opportunity to attack and subsequently gave him the power base to destroy the apparently hated Nandas?

5) If Chandragupta had not overthrown the Nanda, what would the effect on India be?

6) Would the Carthaginians, the Romans, or the Arabs realistically be able to stand a chance against Alexander?

"As Befits a King" is the working title right now, although I'm open to suggestions.
 
4) Would Chandragupta Maurya dared move against Alexander's empire while he was still alive?

6) Would the Carthaginians, the Romans, or the Arabs realistically be able to stand a chance against Alexander?

"As Befits a King" is the working title right now, although I'm open to suggestions.

4. No

5. Carthaginians and the Romans could. Although im not sure about the Arabs
 

I thought so initially also, but then I thought: those provinces are on the extreme edge of his empire. Chandragupta might still move on them.

5. Carthaginians and the Romans could. Although im not sure about the Arabs

I wasn't particularly sure about Carthage. It seems to me the whole reliance on mercenaries thing would actually play into the hands of some would-be assailant.

General Question: There seems to be some confusion with regards to what Chandragupta Maurya did first, upon evaluating multiple sources. Did he dispatch the Macedonian satraps first, or did he overthrow Dhana Nanda and take control of Magadha first?
 
I thought so initially also, but then I thought: those provinces are on the extreme edge of his empire. Chandragupta might still move on them.



I wasn't particularly sure about Carthage. It seems to me the whole reliance on mercenaries thing would actually play into the hands of some would-be assailant.

General Question: There seems to be some confusion with regards to what Chandragupta Maurya did first, upon evaluating multiple sources. Did he dispatch the Macedonian satraps first, or did he overthrow Dhana Nanda and take control of Magadha first?

Sorry im far from an expert here. I would assume that it would be unwise to attack the largest Empire in the World. Unless of Course the Hellens expand into their Territory to much.

As to the matter of carthage i know a bit more. Carthage and Rome will probaly develop very similarily except for a possible Greek prescence in Naples. Maybe an alliance between Carthage and Rome woiuld be formed so that the Alexandrians had to fight a two front war.

Once again this is not my area of expertise
 
It seems like Arabia is a good stepping stone to India if that and I think it was his final goal. The arabians of the cities will give Alexander no trouble, but the desert tribes might be very difficult to properly rule.

Or it might be that simply the name Alexander would insight fear in the hearts of most chieftans. Afterall Iskander is known to some muslims as the name of the devil.

Arabia would definitly connect his empire better.
 
It seems like Arabia is a good stepping stone to India if that and I think it was his final goal. The arabians of the cities will give Alexander no trouble, but the desert tribes might be very difficult to properly rule.

Or it might be that simply the name Alexander would insight fear in the hearts of most chieftans. Afterall Iskander is known to some muslims as the name of the devil.

Arabia would definitly connect his empire better.

I had no doubt that he was going to go to Arabia, but then I thought: did Arabia have wealth back in 323 BC of its own right, or was it wealthy primarily because it was a way station between India and the west?

If it was the latter, and he already conquers India, then would there be any reason to go after Arabia?

Also, here's a question for anyone. There's a discrepancy between these two maps of the general area at 323 BC. Can anybody speak to the accuracy of either one?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8c/Asia_323bc.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Alexander-Empire_323bc.jpg

Thanks. :)
 
I think even in Alexander's day, the Arabian kingdoms were engaged in regular trading with merchants from Persia, the Hindu States, the Egyptians, and the Nubians. Also, if a surviving Macedonian Empire was to prevail in Asia, one could at least have them land a army in the Cape of Hormuz, so as to tighting the grip on commercial shipping and to control possible piracy in the Persian Gulf. I do think Alexander want to establish a stronger naval presence from the Red Sea to the Persian Gulf.
 
I think even in Alexander's day, the Arabian kingdoms were engaged in regular trading with merchants from Persia, the Hindu States, the Egyptians, and the Nubians. Also, if a surviving Macedonian Empire was to prevail in Asia, one could at least have them land a army in the Cape of Hormuz, so as to tighting the grip on commercial shipping and to control possible piracy in the Persian Gulf. I do think Alexander want to establish a stronger naval presence from the Red Sea to the Persian Gulf.

Then I suppose the most practical thing for Alexander to do would be to seize key ports on the Arabian gulf at this time, and not bother with anything else really.

Which brings up another interesting question: where were the key ports at this time? I'm sure Aden was up there, but Jeddah didn't really rise to any prominence until after the rise of Islam. Muscat is never really mentioned until AD.
 

Thande

Donor
Thermo! You're back!

I would point out that, of the possibilities you mention, Alexandrian India has already been done in Flocc's rather interesting Sons of Alexander. Not that I'm saying you couldn't do your own fine version, just as you did with the pretty common Hastings POD in 'Saxon Kings', but I think focusing on Arabia would break more new ground, TL-wise.
 
Thermo! You're back!

Glad to be back!

I would point out that, of the possibilities you mention, Alexandrian India has already been done in Flocc's rather interesting Sons of Alexander. Not that I'm saying you couldn't do your own fine version, just as you did with the pretty common Hastings POD in 'Saxon Kings', but I think focusing on Arabia would break more new ground, TL-wise.

I was definitely looking forward to some Chandragupta Maurya vs. Alexander the Great action in India (the Rumble in the Jungle), although before I can even begin I need to answer some pertinent questions about what Chandragupta did exactly. (For such an important historical figure he's really hard to find information on regarding his early career.)

Arabia, upon closer inspection, is a definite target of Alexander's: the Hadhramut, after all, was a frankincense-growing region. And the conquest shouldn't really take him all that long. A year, maybe two, primarily a series of land invasions.

What will be most interesting in Arabia is after the inevitable breakup of the Alexandrian Empire, I think...
 

Susano

Banned
1) What is the more likely next target for Alexander? Arabia, or something further west?
Well, he had tried India, but his soldiers wouldnt follow him, so its definitly Arabia. It does seem history books consent on that... apparently he planned to settle purple snails on the Arab coast (cant remember if it was the gulf coast or the red sea coast) so that Phoenicia wouldnt be the only source of it...

2) Who truly hated Alexander?
I know of no particular individual, but over time probably most of the Greco-Macedonian Old Guard. Alexander had adapted Persian customs, and that would cause more and more conflicts - especially now that he was settled at a court and not in the field. And his big population resettlment plans... I dont think theyll like that...

6) Would the Carthaginians, the Romans, or the Arabs realistically be able to stand a chance against Alexander?
Would the former two move against Alexander at all? Carthage is a trade empire relying on mercenaries, and Rome still a minor power in Italy. Should Alexander attack them, he could very well pull it off, but then why should he care for such western territories... Though, if Alexander or his heirs dont actively attack Rome and it develops along similar lines to OTL - as Romes fights with the diadoch empires have shown, the Legion proved superior to the Phalanx...
 
What will be most interesting in Arabia is after the inevitable breakup of the Alexandrian Empire, I think...

A Hellenized Arabia would be unbelievably cool.

Will the Jews get Hellenized ITTL? Or will Abrahamic religions still develop and spread?

Lastly, are you abandoning "That Glorious Darkness?"
 
A Hellenized Arabia would be unbelievably cool.

Will the Jews get Hellenized ITTL? Or will Abrahamic religions still develop and spread?

Lastly, are you abandoning "That Glorious Darkness?"

"That Glorious Darkness" will be put on hold for now. It's a really cool idea, but this is something that has been tugging at me for a while.

The Jews have a tendency to resist outside influence. And Alexander the Great really pissed them off after the whole "I am the son of God" thing that he pulled at the Siwa (?) oasis. So I don't expect extensive Hellenization as far as their religion goes, although other aspects of their culture MIGHT be up for grabs.

Arabia would be very interesting. You'll have the Macedonian strongmen put in place to essentially lord over the important trade cities (Aden, Timna, Najran, the Hadramut area) maybe important inland locations like Marib (myrrh).

Then you'll have the inevitable competition between these Hellenic warlords, all the while they'll have to deal with outside, tribal threats.

If one of them manages to consolidate, they would very easily be in a position to perhaps look west to Axum. And consolidation certainly is possible. There's enough wealth to be gained from doing so, and it was done IOTL. (The Himyar kingdom c.300 AD did so).
 

Susano

Banned
The Jews have a tendency to resist outside influence. And Alexander the Great really pissed them off after the whole "I am the son of God" thing that he pulled at the Siwa (?) oasis. So I don't expect extensive Hellenization as far as their religion goes, although other aspects of their culture MIGHT be up for grabs.
Eh. Egyptian Pharaos have traditionally labelled themselves sons of gods - that has nothing to do with Judaism. The oasis priests simply declared Alexander heir to the Pharaohs, a very Egyptian issue that mostly annoyed the Greeks...What did annoy the Jews IOTL were the attempts of hellenisation under his successors. Which eventually did have great successes also in Palestine, though. So, if you want the Jews hellenized, the butterflies would certainly be strong enough for it...
 
Hellenization might occur as it did under the Diodachi, but I think Alexander would end up a lot less hellenic and much more persian. So the hellenic influence might wane and the persian side rise.
 
Hellenization might occur as it did under the Diodachi, but I think Alexander would end up a lot less hellenic and much more persian. So the hellenic influence might wane and the persian side rise.

I'm not so sure about that. Alexander adopted many Persian customs, but he was still Macedonian, and still loved by his army (generally speaking). He had extensive plans to settle more areas to the east with Greeks (and, apparently, more areas to the west with Easterners). I just don't see him, educated by Aristotle, turning into a Persian.
 
I'm not so sure about that. Alexander adopted many Persian customs, but he was still Macedonian, and still loved by his army (generally speaking). He had extensive plans to settle more areas to the east with Greeks (and, apparently, more areas to the west with Easterners). I just don't see him, educated by Aristotle, turning into a Persian.

Well, it's a nice reference to Aristotle, but Alexander throughout his conquests was very adept at adapting to his conquered peoples (both in Persia and Afghanistan, where he substantially changed his armies tactics). He probably wanted to create more a fusion to better meld his Empire. That alone pissed off the Greeks who wanted a more racial hierarchy.

The Jews have a tendency to resist outside influence. And Alexander the Great really pissed them off after the whole "I am the son of God" thing that he pulled at the Siwa (?) oasis. So I don't expect extensive Hellenization as far as their religion goes, although other aspects of their culture MIGHT be up for grabs.

The Jews do have such a tendency, but there were a lot of Hellenized Jews OTL. Indeed, much of the Maccabean Rebellion was prompted by a reaction against Hellenized Jews. Furthermore, Jews have a pretty good impression of Alexander who continued the Persian practice of toleration (probably his most Persian of characteristics).

Arabia would be very interesting. You'll have the Macedonian strongmen put in place to essentially lord over the important trade cities (Aden, Timna, Najran, the Hadramut area) maybe important inland locations like Marib (myrrh).

Then you'll have the inevitable competition between these Hellenic warlords, all the while they'll have to deal with outside, tribal threats.

If one of them manages to consolidate, they would very easily be in a position to perhaps look west to Axum. And consolidation certainly is possible. There's enough wealth to be gained from doing so, and it was done IOTL. (The Himyar kingdom c.300 AD did so).

If Alexander was planning to campaign in Arabia, it seems me as if it was part of a campaign to essentially circumnavigate the Empire in a campaign of conquest to increase the size of the whole. I'm not sure, say, if Alexander might have thought about the need to control a naval route to the Red Sea and perhaps resurrect the Pharoah's Canal or some such in order to better unite his conquests.

If his goal is conquest with a view to consolidation (rather than reaching the end of the world), then it would seem to me that after he finished off Arabia, he might return to Asia Minor and the Caucuses in order to cement his dominion there. [BTW, the map that actually shows the purple of the Empire looks a bit better to me because it limits the extent of the Empire in Pontus and the Caucuses, areas Alexander bypassed in his conquest of Persia.]

Similarly, I'd imagine a campaign to the north of Greece might be nice, if only to potentially control the entirety of the Black Sea coast, or at least the grain growing regions that were the mercantile Greek cities (Athens) main source of imported Grain. Control of these three areas probably enhances the defence of the Empire and serves to lessen any tension by Alexander's best method: conquest.
 
Well, it's a nice reference to Aristotle, but Alexander throughout his conquests was very adept at adapting to his conquered peoples (both in Persia and Afghanistan, where he substantially changed his armies tactics). He probably wanted to create more a fusion to better meld his Empire. That alone pissed off the Greeks who wanted a more racial hierarchy.

Interesting. So Alexander was more egalitarian than most of his Macedonian counterparts. Very interesting, adds a whole new dynamic to politics within a united Alexandrian empire.

The Jews do have such a tendency, but there were a lot of Hellenized Jews OTL. Indeed, much of the Maccabean Rebellion was prompted by a reaction against Hellenized Jews. Furthermore, Jews have a pretty good impression of Alexander who continued the Persian practice of toleration (probably his most Persian of characteristics).

So, any specific reasons why some groups of Jews hellenized while others didn't? What stopped the Hellenization process IOTL?

If Alexander was planning to campaign in Arabia, it seems me as if it was part of a campaign to essentially circumnavigate the Empire in a campaign of conquest to increase the size of the whole. I'm not sure, say, if Alexander might have thought about the need to control a naval route to the Red Sea and perhaps resurrect the Pharoah's Canal or some such in order to better unite his conquests.

So you're saying that Alexander wouldn't have contained himself to just the cities, and would have done a tour de force as it were on the entire Arabian coastline?

It would be a very unwise decision on his part. Alexander was for all intents and purposes crazy, but I'm not sure even he would see the point in marching across the sand, in an area with the population density at this time of about 1 to every, what, 100 square miles?

If his goal is conquest with a view to consolidation (rather than reaching the end of the world), then it would seem to me that after he finished off Arabia, he might return to Asia Minor and the Caucuses in order to cement his dominion there.

That's a good point, although this is a man who was apparently spoiling to march to the mouth of the Ganges. Perhaps most of his conquests were motivated by the desire to reach the end of the world?

[BTW, the map that actually shows the purple of the Empire looks a bit better to me because it limits the extent of the Empire in Pontus and the Caucuses, areas Alexander bypassed in his conquest of Persia.]

Thanks! And can you speak to the Indian subcontinent? One of the major differences between the two maps was that in one there are three Indian kingdoms on one map that are not present on the other.

Similarly, I'd imagine a campaign to the north of Greece might be nice, if only to potentially control the entirety of the Black Sea coast, or at least the grain growing regions that were the mercantile Greek cities (Athens) main source of imported Grain. Control of these three areas probably enhances the defence of the Empire and serves to lessen any tension by Alexander's best method: conquest.

Interesting observation. But wouldn't seizing the Greeks' primary source of grain stir up an awful lot of trouble among them? Or do you think it would make the Greeks behave better? (As in, if they act up, Alexander with a word could stop grain shipments to Athens et al.)

General Announcement: FINALLY squared-away exactly how Chandragupta was able to rise to power. According to this source, those put in charge of the Indian provinces were particularly inept, and it was the slaying of Porus (perhaps the one best able to keep control for Alexander in the early years in that region) that signaled a rebellion which Chandragupta was able to use to his advantage.

Had Alexander continued to live, this could very well be butterflied away. Alexander would certainly have kept an eye on the happenings of India, and would have seen to it that Porus wouldn't have been killed, IMHO.
 
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