Royal Switzerland

I was researching information on French imperial client states and came across a few nuggets of interesting information that inspired an idea of sorts.

What if the Switzerland today was made up of tiny duchies, principalities, and kingdoms ruled as constitutional monarchies under the mixed descendants of French, Italian, and German nobles?

I came up with this:

The Grand Duchy of Rhodania consists of southwestern Switzerland. The capital lies at Sion and the primary language is Italian. The royal family are mixed descendants of the Bonapartes and Sforzas. The residents are called Rhodanes.

The Kingdom of Helvetia is the largest of the four Swiss nations. The capital lies at Zurich and it covers the majority of eastern Switzerland. The primary language is German. The royal family are descendants of the Wittelsbachs of Bavaria and Habsburgs of Austria.. The people are known as Helvetians.

The Kingdom of Lemania is the smallest of the four Swiss nations. The capital is Geneva and the nation is of a size resembling that of Andorra. The Lemans speak French and the royal family are descendants of the Orleans Bourbons with ties to the Portuguese Braganzas (whom are currently united with the House of Orleans-Bourbon).

The Republic of Rauracia is a remnant state of the Swiss Confederation and is centered around the city of Berne (with the -e added on intentionally). It is a smaller version of our Switzerland where German is the primary language.

Lucadamo said:

I was researching information on French imperial client states

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Sorry, what's the point? If you have 'imperial client states' - surviving until today - this means you have a Napoleon victory TL? In such a case, weird things might happen, but many of the client states would have undgerone regime-change in the meantime, or have goten annexed by it's neighbors...

The Grand Duchy of Rhodania consists of southwestern Switzerland. The capital lies at Sion and the primary language is Italian.

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The language around Sion is French, and the people in the upper Wallis (East of Sion) speak German - the Italian speakers live mostly in Ticino, which is barely connected with Wallis/Valais on a political map, but has no easy transit links, so this is certainly not a viable state... and the name, Rhodania, probably indicates that it's along the Rhone-river, where Italian isn't a common language..

The Kingdom of Helvetia is the largest of the four Swiss nations. The capital lies at Zurich and it covers the majority of eastern Switzerland.

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The celtic tribe of the Helvetians (name giver of Helvetia) lived mostly near the shores of Lake Geneva (or Leman), so either in Rhodania or Lemania.
But of course, the name is OTL as well used for Switzerland as a whole, and was used for the client state of France (pre-Napoleon, in fact, and thus pre-empire), called the Helvetic Republic.

The Republic of Rauracia ... is centered around the city of Berne (with the -e added on intentionally). ...where German is the primary language.

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Something odd here as well, Berne is the French form of the name of that city, so it fit's really well with German as the primary language....

And if your state is not a remnant of the earlier confederation due to unknown events post French-Revoultion, it's unlikely that Switzerland in a similar form would even exist - it wouldn't have evolved as Kingdom out of the successor states of the Frankis Empire...

Good Habit said:

And if your state is not a remnant of the earlier confederation due to unknown events post French-Revoultion, it's unlikely that Switzerland in a similar form would even exist - it wouldn't have evolved as Kingdom out of the successor states of the Frankis Empire...

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When the cantons rebelled, a bunch of them were counties, I think. Over time the counts were overthrown and replaced with small republics, so by the 18th century only Neuchatel was a monarchy. So a POD could be that more of the cantons have counts, and they don't get overthrown along the way. Although this will have massive changes as the TL progresses.

Another idea is that the Hapsburgs or Kyburgs manage to dominate Switzerland and make it into a monarchy, although I don't really know how that would work.

rcduggan said:

When the cantons rebelled, a bunch of them were counties, I think.

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wrong on almoust all accounts... while many modern historians even dispute that anyone ever rebelled (at least as part of the process of forming the Old Swiss Confederacy [of before the French revolutionary wars]) - the Confederacy definitely never included any counts (or dukes). Some of the territory was previously ruled by counts (like the Kyburgs, who's land was mostly inherited by the Habsburgs), the Toggenburgs (and the Dukes of Zähringia) who died out without legitimate issue, so that lower levels of administration took over - or war of sucession were fought - and, of course, Habsburg and Savoy, who lost territory to the emerging confederacy (or some of it constituent or associated members) in wars, as did the dukes of Milan...

But the initial members of the Confederacy where self governing mountain valleys - in areas where - may be - the transition of the tribal to the feudal form of organization had never really be completed - that defended their priviledged autonomy against attempts of counts to control them, ans well as Free Imperial cities, that did exist in the same way as well in large parts of Germany. Those early members gradually extended their control over most of present day's Swiss territory, and formed alliances with similar regional leagues, ecclesiastical territories, and - very, very few, local princes...
Non of the constituent parts had ever been a monarchy when a member of the Confederacy (Neuchatel see below)...

If monarchy would have been re-introduced in some of the the cantons, like it happend in former city republics in Italy, there would be no bond to hold the Confederacy together, and therefore, their would be no distinction from any other German minor principality - so there would be no Switzerland, but a larger Germany, or Austria, or France and Italy (or all of them...).

Over time the counts were overthrown and replaced with small republics, so by the 18th century only Neuchatel was a monarchy.

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Wrong again - no canton was formed due to the monarchy being overthrown within the existing political structure - and even Neuchatel, who didn't become a full member of the confederacy before the Congress of Vienna in 1815, had opted voluntarily for a monarchy before. (The local princely family had died out sometime in the early 18th century - the diet of Neuchatel didn't consider it's alliance with some Swiss cantons enough to defend them against French ambitions, and therefore, they being protestant, they choose a strong protestant ruler as their Prince, that is, the King of Prussia..

Another idea is that the Hapsburgs or Kyburgs manage to dominate Switzerland and make it into a monarchy, although I don't really know how that would work.

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Not at all - if one dynasty get's in control of most of OTL's Swiss territory, this would just be one of many medium sized German states, that would face the same problems as the others did around the dissolution of the HRE. So there wouldn't be Switzerland...


The only way I could see Switzerland (as an existing country) turning in to a monarchy was the way it was done in Decades of Darkness (humbleness would almost prevent my of mentioning - at my suggestion) - at the Congress of Vienna, a dethroned King is sent to govern Switzerland, or at least to represent it to the outher world, so that the other powers don't have to deal with 22 cantons... - and - unlike in DoD, he - and his descendants - might as well remain Kings, if they manage a mostly peaceful transition in to a real parliamentary monarchy...

Are you from Switzerland by any chance?

My bad... I got the dates confused. I thought the Zahringen House died out a century later than it did in OTL, hence my remarks about monarchies. That'll teach me to post off the top of my head.

Good Habit said:

Wrong again - no canton was formed due to the monarchy being overthrown within the existing political structure -

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Are you excluding the land the Swiss Confederates conquered from the Hapsburgs over time?

Good Habit said:

Not at all - if one dynasty get's in control of most of OTL's Swiss territory, this would just be one of many medium sized German states, that would face the same problems as the others did around the dissolution of the HRE. So there wouldn't be Switzerland...

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That is assuming, of course, that history goes AIOTL after this TTL monarchy takes power, which will not happen. But most German states managed to survive the dissolution (Bavaria, Hanover, the Saxon states), so why would Switzerland not? With significant non-German influence, the Swiss might retain their own state should a Convergent Germany be formed. But IMO that's taking a Turtledovian view of the butterfly effect.

rcduggan said:

Are you from Switzerland by any chance?

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Indeed..

Are you excluding the land the Swiss Confederates conquered from the Hapsburgs over time?

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Yes - some of them were conquered, some even offered as security by the Habsburgs when they were in need of monney, and never released. But no Habsburg territory joined the confederation when it was still Habsburg ruled - well, with the little exception of the town of Zug, who for sometime was a condominium..

That is assuming, of course, that history goes AIOTL after this TTL monarchy takes power, which will not happen. But most German states managed to survive the dissolution (Bavaria, Hanover, the Saxon states), so why would Switzerland not? With significant non-German influence, the Swiss might retain their own state should a Convergent Germany be formed. But IMO that's taking a Turtledovian view of the butterfly effect.

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The most likely dynastic contenders would, from OTL, have been the Habsburgs and Savoy - and may be Charles the Bold of Burgundy. Therefore, the likelihood that allmost all of OTL's Swiss territory would end up under the same dynasty is not very big, unless there would be a united European Empire... So, if we get a regional Kingdom mostly dominating the eastern / central parts of OTL Switzerland, it would most likely share the fate of German states of similar size ITTL. And if there would be a unified Germany, it would form part of it...

Good Habit said:

Indeed..


Yes - some of them were conquered, some even offered as security by the Habsburgs when they were in need of monney, and never released. But no Habsburg territory joined the confederation when it was still Habsburg ruled - well, with the little exception of the town of Zug, who for sometime was a condominium..

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That was where I got confused. I was thinking some where still Hapsburg-ruled when the joined. Sorry for the confusion.

Good Habit said:

The most likely dynastic contenders would, from OTL, have been the Habsburgs and Savoy - and may be Charles the Bold of Burgundy. Therefore, the likelihood that allmost all of OTL's Swiss territory would end up under the same dynasty is not very big, unless there would be a united European Empire... So, if we get a regional Kingdom mostly dominating the eastern / central parts of OTL Switzerland, it would most likely share the fate of German states of similar size ITTL. And if there would be a unified Germany, it would form part of it...

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There's still no indication that the Swiss would become part of Germany. For a long time the Dutch were considered German, but they are not in Germany. The Austrians are not in Germany, but they are German. Neither is Liechtenstein. My point is that being German does not automatically mean you will be integrated into Germany when it may or may not form. Assuming a strong French-Dutch or Italian dynasty gets control of Switzerland, would have great effect down the road.

rcduggan said:

There's still no indication that the Swiss would become part of Germany. For a long time the Dutch were considered German, but they are not in Germany. The Austrians are not in Germany, but they are German. Neither is Liechtenstein. My point is that being German does not automatically mean you will be integrated into Germany when it may or may not form.

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Correct - but all of the above examples (Netherlands, Austria, Liechtenstein, and - well Luxembourg and Switzerland) are historically well explained exceptions - the number of German states that did get integrated in to a unified Germany was far larger. So, absent a well explained reason for an exception, the likelyhood that they would follow the majority is far bigger than that of an exception... OTOH, if there is no majority of German states re-uniting - than there is no Germany - unless the HRE was never dissolved, and then some of those areas might never have gotten out (both the Dutch and the Swiss got formally out in 1648 - depending on your PoD, this might well not take place at all...)