Assasination attempt succesful...

[Romulus Augustulus]

I wonder...John Fitzgerald Kennedy's life came very close to ending on November the 22nd, 1963, in Dallas, Texas, when Lee Harvey attempted to shoot the President, but missed. What would the effects on history have been had the bullet hit its intended target and killed Kennedy?

[DocOrlando]

Well, there are two things that spring to mind almost immediately:

1) Bobby would have resigned in very short order as Atty. General under Johnson, for several reasons. The "public" reason would be to avoid any semblance of conflict of interest in the government's investigation of the assassination. Privately, I think RFK would be irritated at the thought of working under LBJ, to the same degree LBJ would be irritated by having this legacy brother around. And finally, I think the stress of his brother's death would simply drive him out of public life. My guess is he retreats to a readily-offered teaching position at Harvard Law, and stays there for at least the next decade.

2) Johnson is a lame-duck president from the get-go. There's a huge national feeling of disillusionment following the assassination of Kennedy, the bright young president who was supposed to lead the United States to the brink of the 21st century. Instead the nation is left with another old legislator, a crotchety southerner unprepared for the job and ill-suited to communicate his intentions. While Congress gives Johnson a reasonable honeymoon, and LBJ (well-suited for Congressional give-and-take) is able to play the system well, little of any consequence happens in the six months following the assassination, and soon it is nearly summer, 1964. Though the party is reluctant to challenge Johnson's incumbency, they realize he is not, nor will he ever be, what they had in Kennedy. Hubert Humphrey is floated as a potential nominee, but a determined Johnson manages to hold off this challenge and gain the Convention's nomination. But the disarray evident within the Democratic party results in a November victory for the Republican nominee, a rested (and clean-shaven) Richard M. Nixon.

JFK's death invariably will have repercussions on the Moon Landing and Cuba and Berlin, but I'm going to have to do some research first.

[DominusNovus]

I could see many of the democrats switching their allegiences. Especially in the south. LBJ was quite the liberal, and if he dominates the party, I'd expect the south to leave the democrats (after him, of course, they'd vote for him solely as the favored son).

On a related note, I could imagine Reagan running as a Republican.

Oh, even zanier, A Reagan/Bush ticket.

[Grimm Reaper]

DocOrlando, you miss one very obvious point. LBJ isn't just an immediate lame duck, and who knows if he can hold off Barry Goldwater in 1964.

LBJ is the primary suspect in the murder! After all, he was tossed off the ticket for Georgia Governor Bill Lee in 1964 so he would have been seen as having everything to gain by the killing. Only God knows what dangerous efforts LBJ would have gone to in hopes of diverting attention. Maybe a second attempt on Cuba or a massively expanded Vietnam war? It's scary just to consider.

Dominus, be serious here. George H.W. Bush is an easy going, mainstream, patrician New England style Republican. No way he would ever agree to play second fiddle to some B-grade actor.

[Hendryk]

Apart from purely political considerations, one should also keep in mind the likely cultural consequences. Judging from the outcry from the failed attempt, one can easily speculate that a successful one would have created an "era of suspicion" (to quote Nathalie Sarraute) in American culture, making the paranoid elaboration of conspiracy theories a permanent background noise, with confidence in institutions seriously weakened. One could also imagine that, the taboo of high-level political assassination being broken for the first time since McKinley, other figures would find themselves targeted as well. Who, after all, can be safe is the President himself is fair game? Is it too far-fetched to think that Martin Luther King might have been next?

[Alois]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

Judging from the outcry from the failed attempt, one can easily speculate that a successful one would have created an "era of suspicion" (to quote Nathalie Sarraute) in American culture, making the paranoid elaboration of conspiracy theories a permanent background noise, with confidence in institutions seriously weakened.

Maybe this is far-fetched, but what if, instead of Oswald standing trial as he did, and shown to be a complete loony, someone had killed him, gunned him down in front of the courthouse or someplace? Would there be suspicion that the Dallas police allowed it to happen? Would there be a conspiracy theory that Oswald was silenced because he could identify --- whoever?

[DMA]

Well if JFK had been killed, there wouldn't have been that attempt military coup just before the 1964 elections

[Brilliantlight]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

Apart from purely political considerations, one should also keep in mind the likely cultural consequences. Judging from the outcry from the failed attempt, one can easily speculate that a successful one would have created an "era of suspicion" (to quote Nathalie Sarraute) in American culture, making the paranoid elaboration of conspiracy theories a permanent background noise, with confidence in institutions seriously weakened.

No one would be that paranoid.

[Romulus Augustulus]

Well, that wasn't so much a failed military coup as a drunken seargant with conservative beliefs staggering into the Kennedy--Goldwater debates and declaring an overthrow of the government. I remember watching it on live television...I laughed so hard. But seriously. If Kennedy hadn't been assasinated, I would say that Martin Luther King would have also fallen victim to the bullet. I'm pretty sure that if he did, he would not have succesfully run for President in '84. Had that not happened, I think the United States would be a lot worse off...King was one of the best presidents the United States had in the later half of the twentieth century. Of course, so far they're all outstanding. JFK emancipated the African Americans of the South, RFK did a lot for international peace, EK improved the economy like you wouldn't believe...and King helped precipitate one of the greatest periods of economic expansion the United States has ever seen. Clinton was similarly good, especially his admirable handling of the civil war in the USSR. Gore has just been elected, we can't judge him yet. I thought that Clinton's mediation of the crisis between the shrunken USSR, comprising Russia and Eastern Europe, and the Union of Central Asia was really admirable. At first, it didn't seem like the Central Asian SSRs would gain their independence, but hey, the descendants of horse nomads can be really good with tanks!

[DMA]

Originally Posted by Romulus Augustulus

Well, that wasn't so much a failed military coup as a drunken seargant with conservative beliefs staggering into the Kennedy--Goldwater debates and declaring an overthrow of the government. I remember watching it on live television...I laughed so hard.

So you believe the cover story eh? I never did. It was always very suspicious why Generals LeMay & Taylor resigned around the same time.

[Romulus Augustulus]

They resigned because they had a drunken party for whatever reason...they humiliated themselves so badly, they ducked out of private life. I have some rare footage of the Great Pissup of '64, and it left me in laughter-induced tears.

[DMA]

Originally Posted by Romulus Augustulus

They resigned because they had a drunken party for whatever reason...they humiliated themselves so badly, they ducked out of private life. I have some rare footage of the Great Pissup of '64, and it left me in laughter-induced tears.

Well that's a fake without a doubt. I go along with Oliver Stone on that one too. JFK, & the US govt for that matter, couldn't let it known, especially to the Soviets, that the military tried to conduct a coup. It's an entire cover-up. The piss-up business, whether it be that sergeant or LeMay & co, was deliberately done for the Soviets to believe. And boy did they take the cover story hook, line, & sinker, because the Soviet Polituro are used to having their military completely drunk at the best of times.

[Romulus Augustulus]

No matter who did it, the Great Pissup of '64, cover story or not, was still really funny. And in any case, I was under the impression that conspiracy theories weren't really in fashion...ah well. You run into dregs every now and then, anyway.

[DMA]

Originally Posted by Romulus Augustulus

No matter who did it, the Great Pissup of '64, cover story or not, was still really funny. And in any case, I was under the impression that conspiracy theories weren't really in fashion...ah well. You run into dregs every now and then, anyway.

Yeah it was funny. And speaking of dregs, did you see the way LeMay ended up with his pants over his head?

I never did understand what Taylor was up to though.

[Romulus Augustulus]

His beer ran out, so he pissed into the bottle and drank that...I think.

[DMA]

Originally Posted by Romulus Augustulus

His beer ran out, so he pissed into the bottle and drank that...I think.

Well that would explain his behaviour... that's if it's really any of them & not just actors of course...

[DominusNovus]

OOC: at Romulus for picking that many presidents. Really limiting our possibilities here.

[DocOrlando]

Yes, well, that's why I like mine better anyway, DN...

[Ivan Druzhkov]

Originally Posted by Romulus Augustulus

Clinton was similarly good, especially his admirable handling of the civil war in the USSR. Gore has just been elected, we can't judge him yet. I thought that Clinton's mediation of the crisis between the shrunken USSR, comprising Russia and Eastern Europe, and the Union of Central Asia was really admirable. At first, it didn't seem like the Central Asian SSRs would gain their independence, but hey, the descendants of horse nomads can be really good with tanks!

Oh god, another fan of Karasov's UCA. The stupid drunk spends more time wallowing in the presidental palace in Dushanbe than dealing with anything in Astana City. Every week, I keep hearing about some Uzbeki seperatist group blowing up a school bus or a Sunni militaman murdering provincial officials in Tashkent.

Mind you, half of these guys are in Saddam's back pocket. Ever since he took out Khomeini in '85, Hussien thinks he's the bloody Pope of Chilitown!

Mark my words...Karasov doesn't have much time left. And when he falls, the whole edifice is going to come crumbling down. And who'll be there to pick up the pieces? Our "partners in world affairs", the U of S S R. Hell, ever since the Zguyanov-Hu Pact, China doesn't care one whit what the Soviets do, so long as the money keeps flowing.

[Romulus Augustulus]

I didn't say that the UCA now was good...I said that the military campaign in which they won their independence was very well conducted. Too bad General Simarov was assasinated...he would have made a pretty good president. Granted, Karasov was and is a drunk, but hey, now his advisors mostly run things, which they do well enough. As for the drunk thing...I'm distantly related to Karasov, I met him a couple of times before he entered politics. In the photo of him--taken 1978--I'm second from the right, wearing the unusually colorful traditional Uzbek robe. I'm not even going to try to explain my family ties or how I got to living in the United States.