Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
What would be the result of Antony and Cleopatra decisively defeating Octavian's forces at Actium? Would it mean much in the long run or would it just delay Octavian's inevitable victory?
WI: Mark Antony wins at Actium
- Thread starter Cuāuhtemōc
- Start date
I feel it's going to be more the latter here...
I mean to be perfectly honest, Antony and Cleopatra only controls Egypt, Greece and whatever Asian possessions they have (corresponding to Western and Southern Anatolia as well as Syria), vs. Octavian's control of...well everywhere else Rome had at this point.
Long story short, Octavian has more resources, Antony might have some allies in client states but doubtful that'll be enough, plus Parthia doesn't exactly like Rome so...Octavian is going to win that fight in the end of it all.
I mean to be perfectly honest, Antony and Cleopatra only controls Egypt, Greece and whatever Asian possessions they have (corresponding to Western and Southern Anatolia as well as Syria), vs. Octavian's control of...well everywhere else Rome had at this point.
Long story short, Octavian has more resources, Antony might have some allies in client states but doubtful that'll be enough, plus Parthia doesn't exactly like Rome so...Octavian is going to win that fight in the end of it all.
To be fair, it would definitely effect the future course of Augustian Rome. The prestige of Agrippa would have been greatly damaged, for one. That would greatly change the architecture of Rome, as well as it's conquest of Dacia.
I disagree...it was a significant turning point. Octavian's control would have been seriously weakened...as it was Antony was still more beloved in Rome than he was, but Octavian had shrewdly played up the 'bad advisors' angle re:Cleopatra and the will. But facing a victorious Antony, I think there's a sea-change and Antony seen as Caesar's real political heir (many already did anyways) even if bewitched for the moment. Octavian became Augustus largely on the basis of Actium and incorporating the immense wealth and resources of Antony's eastern provinces. Without those, and with losing even more due to Actium...he probably faces internal challenges to his authority everywhere he looks. Rome despises losers, and Octavian's record was already iffy, having been saved from certain failure by Antony at Phillipi. Even Actium is actually Agrippa, but it was good enough.
And one last note; at the time in question, the Eastern provinces were the really lucrative ones. So Antony already holds a strong hand before Actium; after he wins it, he's golden.
Derek Pullem
Donor
To be honest if Anthony had won at Actium, the result would depend on who survived.
If Agrippa died then Octavian's best general is gone and the land war in Greece is in the balance. And that is assuming the defeat at Actium does not precipitate mass desertions in the Octavian forces (as it did in Anthony's forces after the battle)
Without a fleet Octavian would be powerless to prevent Anthony from landing in Italy and the loss of Rome would probably cement Anthony's victory.
if Octavian dies then it's game over - Anthony wins.
If Octavian and Agrippa survive then the war will be very messy although I think I would favour Anthony
If Agrippa died then Octavian's best general is gone and the land war in Greece is in the balance. And that is assuming the defeat at Actium does not precipitate mass desertions in the Octavian forces (as it did in Anthony's forces after the battle)
Without a fleet Octavian would be powerless to prevent Anthony from landing in Italy and the loss of Rome would probably cement Anthony's victory.
if Octavian dies then it's game over - Anthony wins.
If Octavian and Agrippa survive then the war will be very messy although I think I would favour Anthony
Will it?My understanding was that a major reason behind Antony's forces defecting apart from losing the Battle of Actium was that Mark Antony's authority rests upon very shaky legitimacy(virtually none actually after the Senate revoked it),since Octavian controls the Senate and has the opinion of the Roman public in his favor.
Raunchel
Banned
Antony, as far as I know, already lost before the actual battle, due to the malaria in his fleet and army. But, if that is taken away, there will be no shortage of rowers, and he can win.
This leaves him two options, retire for winter, or force landings in Italy. OTL he wanted to do the first, but a sufficiently grand victory will probably make him choose to do the second.
Then it really depends on the loyalty of Octavian 's legions, if they desert, it's game over. But if they don't, things will get very interesting, and Antony will have to go to winter quarters in Italy, while more forces are brought up from the east.
This leaves him two options, retire for winter, or force landings in Italy. OTL he wanted to do the first, but a sufficiently grand victory will probably make him choose to do the second.
Then it really depends on the loyalty of Octavian 's legions, if they desert, it's game over. But if they don't, things will get very interesting, and Antony will have to go to winter quarters in Italy, while more forces are brought up from the east.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Octavian controls the Senate because he is winning. A loss at Actium and the Senate is in play again. A loss at Actium and an Antonnine army in Italy and Anthony probably has enough to sway the Senate to his side.
Octavian controlled the senate about as much as Caesar did after he took Rome. When Octavian was drumming up calls for war with Antony there was a very large exodus of senators fleeing to join Antony.
Though if you want a major Antony victory its best to do it before Actium. Do to poor campaigning on his part, Actium was more a desperation move than anything else. He was in a terrible position, morale was low, men were defecting, his access to water was being threatened. Actium could definitely turn things around, but it was more of a breakout attempt than anything else.
Also keep. Cleopatra. In. Egypt. Seriously, her presence caused no end of troubles between Antony and his inner circle and were the cause of some defections.
Doubtful, anyone in the senate that wasn't already deep in Octavian's camp had probably fled already.