No Heinkel HE-177, where do the engines go?

what if Heinkel HE-177 bomber cancelled after first prototypes built, never entering production? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177

where do the engines go? something over 4,000 "donor" DB engines for the "power system" units

thaddeus said:

what if Heinkel HE-177 bomber cancelled after first prototypes built, never entering production? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177

where do the engines go? something over 4,000 "donor" DB engines for the "power system" units

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Not sure where they would go, but they should go to making more fighters.

2.000 more Ju88s? If used as night fighters they could make a significant addition to the defense of the Reich from the British bombers.

On the other hand, wherever the engines go, there is very little difference altogether. By 1943, the Allies are producing 60.000+ airplanes a year and 2.000 more or less of any type is nothing.

Shaby said:

2.000 more Ju88s? If used as night fighters they could make a significant addition to the defense of the Reich from the British bombers.

On the other hand, wherever the engines go, there is very little difference altogether. By 1943, the Allies are producing 60.000+ airplanes a year and 2.000 more or less of any type is nothing.

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They didn't use DB engines though, but with a bunch of extras maybe they would? The HE111 already had adapted to the DB engines for some models, they might be the first to get them for any bombers.

wiking said:

They didn't use DB engines though, but with a bunch of extras maybe they would? The HE111 already had adapted to the DB engines for some models, they might be the first to get them for any bombers.

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Well it was the direct competitor with Jumo engines, so I gather they are similar? How difficult is it to retrofit them?

But again, whatever they do with the engines (more of Bf-109 or 110 seems possible) they are getting swamped under thousands of Allied planes and still lack fuel, so... Very little difference altogether.

wiking said:

They didn't use DB engines though, but with a bunch of extras maybe they would? The HE111 already had adapted to the DB engines for some models, they might be the first to get them for any bombers.

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that was my thought, at first glance something like 600 - 800hp more (overall)?

from donor engines, not any attempt to use troubled power system.

Shaby said:

Well it was the direct competitor with Jumo engines, so I gather they are similar? How difficult is it to retrofit them?

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The Jumos are bigger and AFAIK there are some significant differences in mounting, but those could be worked out if needed. Not sure if there is that big of an advantage of DBs for night fighters by 1942, as both had pressurized water cooling systems by this point, though IIRC the DB had better sustained high power abilities than the Jumos. Otherwise those the power ratings are fairly similar.

thaddeus said:

that was my thought, at first glance something like 600 - 800hp more (overall)?

from donor engines, not any attempt to use troubled power system.

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no, the DB 601/605 wasn't appreciably different than the contemporary Jumos in power.

Shaby said:

2.000 more Ju88s? If used as night fighters they could make a significant addition to the defense of the Reich from the British bombers.

On the other hand, wherever the engines go, there is very little difference altogether. By 1943, the Allies are producing 60.000+ airplanes a year and 2.000 more or less of any type is nothing.

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Besides, what good are fighters without pilots ?

Pomphis said:

Besides, what good are fighters without pilots ?

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Well, they'd have all the pilots not wasted on the He177s IOTL.

with end of He 177 project, the 4,000 DB 601 engines would goes to those Aircraft production

production units
Me 110 a twin-engine heavy fighter
Me 210 a twin-engine heavy fighter and ground-attack aircraft

Project never Realized using DB 601 engine
Me 261 a twin-engine long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft (prototype )
He 119 a singel-engine unarmed reconnaissance bomber (prototype)
Heinkel P.1076 a singel-engine High Altitude Fighter (in early stage of study Mockup)
Hütten Ho 136 a singel-engine long range Dive bomber (study)
Hütten Fernzerstörer a twin-engine heavy fighter with similar engine configuration like He 177. (study)
Blohm & Voss P170.01 a TRIPLE-engine fast bomber/Fighter/reconnaissance aircraft (study)
Arado Ar 240 a twin-engine fast bomber (mockup)

so with 4000 engines averrable one of those project could goes into Production

Michel Van said:

with end of He 177 project, the 4,000 DB 601 engines would goes to those Aircraft production

production units
Me 110 a twin-engine heavy fighter
Me 210 a twin-engine heavy fighter and ground-attack aircraft

Project never Realized
Me 261 a twin-engine long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft (prototype )
He 119 a singel-engine unarmed reconnaissance bomber (prototype)
Heinkel P.1076 a singel-engine High Altitude Fighter (in early stage of study Mockup)
Hütten Ho 136 a singel-engine long range Dive bomber (study)
Hütten Fernzerstörer a twin-engine heavy fighter with similar engine configuration like He 177. (study)
Blohm & Voss P170.01 a TRIPLE-engine fast bomber/Fighter/reconnaissance aircraft (study)
Arado Ar 240 a twin-engine fast bomber (mockup)

so with 4000 engines averrable one of those project could goes into Production

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Probably a lot more than just 4000 engines; generally aircraft went through more engines than just the originals they were delivered with; plus given the engine fires that the He177s suffered from, they chewed up more than just one set of engines in their life. Of course we do need to ask if engines were the limiting factor. Probably the extra engines would likely also contribute to putting existing aircraft back in service that were languishing at airfields due to lack of engine parts or spare engines. Plus the fuel/lubrication oils saved from the He177s would be highly valuable to the LW for their other aircraft.

The materials, labor, and factory space saved from He177 air frames would likely be plowed back into existing production. Heinkel and Arado make Ju88 parts and of course their own aircraft, so we could have the extras used to make more He111s, Ju88s, or who knows what else in terms of other aircraft. The Ar240/440 is not getting made; it was too flawed until too late to make it into production. Likely we just get more He111s, Ju88s, and fighters. Not as many as the extra engines would indicate, as the need for engines for existing aircraft would likely absorb some of that excess.

wiking said:

They didn't use DB engines though, but with a bunch of extras maybe they would? The HE111 already had adapted to the DB engines for some models, they might be the first to get them for any bombers.

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thaddeus said:

that was my thought, at first glance something like 600 - 800hp more (overall)?

from donor engines, not any attempt to use troubled power system.

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wiking said:

no, the DB 601/605 wasn't appreciably different than the contemporary Jumos in power.

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you are correct, I conflated the numbers from later, injected versions of DB-605 engine (1,700 hp vs. Jumo 211's 1,300hp)

if they did use DB engines on the HE-111 they would gain from increased power in later versions of 601 - 605 series or possibly use the DB-603 (as Dornier DO-217 M variant) which managed 1,700hp from initial versions.

Michel Van said:

with end of He 177 project, the 4,000 DB 601 engines would goes to those Aircraft production

production units
Me 110 a twin-engine heavy fighter
Me 210 a twin-engine heavy fighter and ground-attack aircraft

Project never Realized using DB 601 engine
Me 261 a twin-engine long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft (prototype )
He 119 a singel-engine unarmed reconnaissance bomber (prototype)
Heinkel P.1076 a singel-engine High Altitude Fighter (in early stage of study Mockup)
Hütten Ho 136 a singel-engine long range Dive bomber (study)
Hütten Fernzerstörer a twin-engine heavy fighter with similar engine configuration like He 177. (study)
Blohm & Voss P170.01 a TRIPLE-engine fast bomber/Fighter/reconnaissance aircraft (study)
Arado Ar 240 a twin-engine fast bomber (mockup)

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the most plausible project would be the HE-119 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_119 , it was passed off as variant of HE-111 anyway, a small number could be built as recon/bomber (role Arado AR-234 filled later IOTL)

Another option is the nightfighter force; I was reading about that recently and in 1942 Kammhuber, head of that force begged for resources to increase the number of aircraft from 500 to 2100 and had Goering's support until Hitler dismissed intelligence numbers about Allied aircraft production as fantasy, so Goering turned on the idea; if the resources are there due to the He177 being cancelled you could have that get plowed into the night fighter force and get more Bf110s, Ju88s, or even He219s (though not ready until 1943).

wiking said:

Another option is the nightfighter force; I was reading about that recently and in 1942 Kammhuber, head of that force begged for resources to increase the number of aircraft from 500 to 2100 and had Goering's support until Hitler dismissed intelligence numbers about Allied aircraft production as fantasy, so Goering turned on the idea; if the resources are there due to the He177 being cancelled you could have that get plowed into the night fighter force and get more Bf110s, Ju88s, or even He219s (though not ready until 1943).

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was the production on Bf-110s curtailed during launch of 210 due to engine availability? or certainty that 210 would perform?

less engine shortage, continued 110 production? even if plan (initially at least) would be for export to Hungary, etc.?

also had a critical need for glider tug which IOTL led to HE-111z Zwilling using 5 Jumo engines, plausible power system units from cancelled HE-177 to build a small number of those?

thaddeus said:

was the production on Bf-110s curtailed during launch of 210 due to engine availability? or certainty that 210 would perform?

less engine shortage, continued 110 production? even if plan (initially at least) would be for export to Hungary, etc.?

also had a critical need for glider tug which IOTL led to HE-111z Zwilling using 5 Jumo engines, plausible power system units from cancelled HE-177 to build a small number of those?

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More likely they continued Me 110 production, because the Me 210 project had serious problems and there Test pilots consider the Aircraft as "Unsafe"
Messerschmitt had to overworked the Me 210 over Me 310 to final version Me 410, but that is complete different aircraft that use other engine as Me 110
and in the end the heavy fighter/bomber Me 410 end up in reconnaissance duties only...

Were some of the He-177 resources poured into the He-219 program and as a result there were more and earlier He-219s were produced, Bomber Command would have been even more hard pressed. The Lancaster, while an efficient bomb-truck, was also a winged hearse for its crews. If the Luftwaffe was able to have 1,200 He-219 rather than the fewer than 300, the Luftwaffe might driven Bomber Command from the night sky just as it had earlier driven BC from the day sky.

wiking said:

Another option is the nightfighter force; I was reading about that recently and in 1942 Kammhuber, head of that force begged for resources to increase the number of aircraft from 500 to 2100 and had Goering's support until Hitler dismissed intelligence numbers about Allied aircraft production as fantasy, so Goering turned on the idea; if the resources are there due to the He177 being cancelled you could have that get plowed into the night fighter force and get more Bf110s, Ju88s, or even He219s (though not ready until 1943).

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thaddeus said:

was the production on Bf-110s curtailed during launch of 210 due to engine availability? or certainty that 210 would perform?

less engine shortage, continued 110 production? even if plan (initially at least) would be for export to Hungary, etc.?

also had a critical need for glider tug which IOTL led to HE-111z Zwilling using 5 Jumo engines, plausible power system units from cancelled HE-177 to build a small number of those?

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No, they converted the lines and then found out the Me210 was garbage, so they converted back.

PhilKearny said:

Were some of the He-177 resources poured into the He-219 program and as a result there were more and earlier He-219s were produced, Bomber Command would have been even more hard pressed. The Lancaster, while an efficient bomb-truck, was also a winged hearse for its crews. If the Luftwaffe was able to have 1,200 He-219 rather than the fewer than 300, the Luftwaffe might driven Bomber Command from the night sky just as it had earlier driven BC from the day sky.

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The He219 was highly overrated in histories; apparently its top speed with DB603 engine and all its night fighting gear was only 310mph. Also it didn't enter production until 1943 after which time too much damage had been done to really recover from. As it was the RAF was beat during the Battle of Berlin in 1943 and it cut off its campaign until mid-1944.

wiking said:

The Jumos are bigger and AFAIK there are some significant differences in mounting, but those could be worked out if needed. Not sure if there is that big of an advantage of DBs for night fighters by 1942, as both had pressurized water cooling systems by this point, though IIRC the DB had better sustained high power abilities than the Jumos. Otherwise those the power ratings are fairly similar.

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Czechoslovakia mounted Jumos into Bf 109 getting Avia S-199 so definitely it can be worked out. Last version of Messerschmidt planes which got historically into action and claimed victory over Spitfire. In 1948. Ironically flying for Jewish state.