Romanos IV future TL

After the feedback I received for my TL on a surviving Macedonian dynasty, once I've finished my exams later this month, I believe I'll try a TLIAM (A timeline in a month, which, seeing as I'll likely start in the middle of the month, I'll interpret as 30 days or less) on a Byzantine emperor present at one of the most critical moments of the empire's history - Romanos IV Diogenes.

The Byzantines winning/avoiding the Battle of Manzikert has been a often-discussed subject on this forum, but I don't think I've seen any timelines which cover this POD, even in passing, nor on what would happen to Romanos himself. In addition, I have a soft spot for underdogs - characters who could have had potential if they had survived or their situations been different, such as (to name a few) Michael III 'the Drunkard', Romanos I Lekapenos, Romanos IV Diogenes, Alexios II Komnenos, Alexios & David Komnenos of Trebizond, and Constantine Palaiologos, son of Michael VIII.

The situation for Romanos as of Manzikert:

* The theme system and the army is a mess.
* The Doukas family, in particular Prince Michael Doukas, the Caesar John Doukas and his son Andronikos, despises him.
* While old families like the Skleroi, Phokai & Kourkouai are in decline, the Komnenos family is on the rise due to the family matriarch, Anna Dalassena.
* Turkmen have been raiding for years as far as Iconium.
* Robert Guiscard and the Normans have conquered most of Sicily and Southern Italy and are in position to raid into Epirus as they did IOTL.
* The Pechenegs are also in a prime position to raid across the Danube.

An ailing empire ruled by a non-Komnenos emperor facing enemies within and without? Sounds fun!

My POD is simple - At Manzikert, Romanos ends up taking his friend Nikephoros Botaneiates with him instead of Andronikos Doukas who IOTL abandoned the emperor at a crucial moment, turning a winnable battle into a rout.

By Manzikert, Romanos already has three sons, one by Anna, daughter of Prince Alusian of Bulgaria, and two by Empress Eudokia Makrembolites:

* Constantine, adult, married to Theodora Komnenos, sister of Alexios Komnenos. IOTL died c.1074 fighting the Turks near Antioch.
* Leo (b.1070), porphyrogennetos, IOTL died c.1087 fighting the Pechenegs.
* Nikephoros (b.1071), porphyrogennetos, IOTL c.1095 caught for conspiring against the emperor and accidentally blinded. Date of death unknown.

Constantine presumably has military training and experience, while Leo and Nikephoros would grow up with a proper imperial education. In addition, Constantine X's youngest children - Theodora, Constantius and Zoe - are still in single digits and require a father-figure of sorts.

And that's just my basic outline so far about my next upcoming TL. Any thoughts? Any questions/problems I'd be happy to discuss!

Pretty good potential timeline. A Diogenes-Komnenos alliance would be a powerful one. It could replace the otl Komnenos-Doukas alliance.

lordyu said:

Pretty good potential timeline. A Diogenes-Komnenos alliance would be a powerful one. It could replace the otl Komnenos-Doukas alliance.

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Thanks. Unless I'm mistaken, Romanos' father Constantine took part in Basil II's Bulgarian campaigns, but apart from that, the Diogenes family was relatively young, at least compared to the likes of the Doukai, Skleroi and Phokai.

Anyone else?

Good timeline -- did a review of the battle POD one time -- you could also have the emperor not split his forces and have 25% of Army head south ---this would give him a significant advantage at the battle --- and not having the 2nd line continue to the camp and leave him with the first line on the field will change the scenes completely

trajen777 said:

Good timeline -- did a review of the battle POD one time -- you could also have the emperor not split his forces and have 25% of Army head south ---this would give him a significant advantage at the battle --- and not having the 2nd line continue to the camp and leave him with the first line on the field will change the scenes completely

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Hmm, thanks for the tip! I'll be sure to use that.

Or let Alp Arslan get fully involved with the Fatimids and Egypt and THEN try to recapture the fortresses.
ie Don't fight Manzikert!!

Lindseyman said:

Or let Alp Arslan get fully involved with the Fatimids and Egypt and THEN try to recapture the fortresses.
ie Don't fight Manzikert!!

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Even better.

Just a few more questions:

1. When Andronikos Komnenos came to power, his murder of Alexios II was a real blow to his popularity, and after two years he was reviled and deposed. Would this be the case if Romanos tried to get rid of Michael, Andronikos and Constantius Doukas unless they, or people acting on their behalf moved first?

2. I've read that while Romanos was a good soldier, he wasn't a good politician. Given a victory over the Seljuks, could he try and reinstate Isaac Komnenos' reforms? I'm not sure how good a politician Isaac was but he seemed to do well until he fell ill and stepped down.

3. Speaking of the themes and pronoia system, by Manzikert how deeply entrenched was the latter? And, probably unrelated, but I read somewhere that the idea of middle-class men forming the bulk of the thematic armies wasn't entirely true. Any thoughts? It probably wasn't worded like that.

Basically, I also read that the nobility were also important to the thematic armies and that Basil II's efforts severely weakened that role.

4. Aside from prestige, was Bari and the rest of Southern Italy really worth the empire's time and effort to expel/subjugate the Normans?

Andronicus also had the problem of trying to go against the nobility too forcefully and being rather heavy handed. If Romanos plays his cards right that might not be the case.

Possibly. I don't know enough about Romanos to get a feel for his personality but it is possible he may be convinced to do so.

The pronoia only came up beginning with the Comnenoi. Don't know enough of the structure of the Themata to comment.

Yes. Bari allows for a staging ground to raid Epirus, Crete and Greece proper. At worst this could lead to raids around Thessalonica. As well, securing Bari allows for quick access to the Italian mainland and intervention, along with greater control over the Adriatic.

Soverihn said:

Andronicus also had the problem of trying to go against the nobility too forcefully and being rather heavy handed. If Romanos plays his cards right that might not be the case.

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Got it.

Soverihn said:

Possibly. I don't know enough about Romanos to get a feel for his personality but it is possible he may be convinced to do so.

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Okay. If he wasn't too good of a politician, he might try to build up his skills, or compensate for it in the beginning. According to Angold, his nucleus of followers included "administrative and legal experts, such as the future historian, Michael Attaleiates". Alexander Kazhdan also describes him as impetuous yet courageous, generous, militarily talented and popular.

Soverihn said:

The pronoia only came up beginning with the Comnenoi. Don't know enough of the structure of the Themata to comment.

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Really? Because I've read of it as early as Constantine IX Monomachos.

Soverihn said:

Yes. Bari allows for a staging ground to raid Epirus, Crete and Greece proper. At worst this could lead to raids around Thessalonica. As well, securing Bari allows for quick access to the Italian mainland and intervention, along with greater control over the Adriatic.

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Alright - so another reconquest is in order.

Off-topic: That'll make this the third TL I've written where the Byzantines reconquer Southern Italy, the exception being Aima Drasis, which I need to get back to at some point.

Bumping in case anyone else is interested.