Under what conditions would it have been possible for the Reichsheer to be / grow larger before the advent of the Nazis with the (grudging) consent of the Entente? Similarly, under what conditions would it be possible for the Reichsmarine to finish construction of all / some of the ships of the Bayern, Mackensen, and Cöln classes?
Larger Reichswehr / earlier German re-armament after WWI
- Thread starter Amartus
- Start date
The short answer is that the peace treaties with Germany and Austria have to allow these countries larger armed forces. Say:
-Germany an army of 300,000 and 21 infantry divisions;
-more personnel for the German navy and higher tonnage limits for its warships;
-a small air force.
To get this Germany and Austria have to be in a better barganing position at the end of World War One. Which means the Germans don't loose so badly.
-Germany an army of 300,000 and 21 infantry divisions;
-more personnel for the German navy and higher tonnage limits for its warships;
-a small air force.
To get this Germany and Austria have to be in a better barganing position at the end of World War One. Which means the Germans don't loose so badly.
Only if this is DBWI and the Weimar Republic might not be able to spend more on the Reischwehr even if the terms of the peace treaty were more generous.
I thought about that a bit more and thought if there had been a Communist Revolution in Britain after the General Strike that would make the French and Italians want to make sure that Germany didn't go the same way.
However, that doesn't mean it allows Germany to have things like tanks, aeroplanes and U-boats. They might allow a bigger Army for internal security, but that would only mean more infantry. That would give them more qualified officers and NCOs in 1933, which was my thinking behind Versailles allowing Germany an army of 300,000 instead of 100,000.
It also depends upon the Communist Great Britain's foreign policy. If the British Communists start a world war in the late 1920s to liberate the world from Capitalism then that would make the Versailles treaty meaningless as far as Germany's armed forces were concerned.
However, that doesn't mean it allows Germany to have things like tanks, aeroplanes and U-boats. They might allow a bigger Army for internal security, but that would only mean more infantry. That would give them more qualified officers and NCOs in 1933, which was my thinking behind Versailles allowing Germany an army of 300,000 instead of 100,000.
It also depends upon the Communist Great Britain's foreign policy. If the British Communists start a world war in the late 1920s to liberate the world from Capitalism then that would make the Versailles treaty meaningless as far as Germany's armed forces were concerned.
You wouldn't have the Nazis if the government was allowed to have a 300-400K strong army and could afford it with the reparations they had to pay.
The first problem with having an army that is large enough to meet Germany's needs is the treaty obligations, but those can be easily changed. The second is the fact that armies cost money even if they provide stability in society and soak up the young, angry, unemployed men. If Germany can afford it then their reperations are on a lower level then OTL.
Navies and Air Forces cost money too.
That's why I was thinking along the lines of Germany building up an official air force that would at most be treble the size of the secret one that was built up in the real world. The idea behind that is to give the Luftwaffe better brains in 1933 rather increase its ability to build more brawn between then and 1939.
Germany isn't going to be able to afford a significantly larger navy even if it is allowed one.
However, it could be allowed to keep its 8 oldest dreadnoughts rather than its 8 newest pre-dreadnoughts. If Germany was allowed to replace them with ships with 15" guns displacing 12,000 tons, that would not be enough to build a proper ocean going battleship, but it would allow them to build Scharnhorst and Gneisenau with 15" guns. Also a limit of 8,000 tons instead of 6,000 tons would cure the faults in the light cruisers built between the wars. These would be good improvements in the quality of the navy Germany went to war with and not prohibitively expensive.
Thanks for the replies.
What I am looking for I suppose is realistic ways that the Germans are able to (read allowed to) begin re-armament in the early inter-war period.
One way to do so, I like this because it might allow the Germans to complete construction of all / some of the ships I listed in my OP, would be in reaction to greater Soviet success in their war with Poland.
Another would be for the Germans to be allowed to expand in the aftermath of a Great British Strike in 1925 leading to a Communist Britain – more hard-line than that posited in Lord Bribane's very excellent timeline Bayonets won’t cut Coal.
In both cases I would imagine German re-armament would be allowed under conventions amending the military clauses of the ToV. Amendment of the reparations clauses would be important here too, as well as being potentially more controversial from the pov of the Entente nations.
Ideally I would want both of these events to occur, with a Second American Civil War breaking out at some point as well. Obviously the sequence of events would be great importance, otherwise I would be overworking the ASBs and butterfly-nets!
My desired end result would be a multipolar world in a state of extreme upheaval:
• Germany is again in the front-rank of the Great Powers; an uneasy détente has developed between the Reich and the French Third Republic as they face the revolutionary powers.
• Internally, Germany has benefited from an equally uneasy détente between the Social Democrats and Monarchist Conservatives.
• The Nazis remain a fringe group; anti-Semitism still exists in Germany, but is not fostered as it was under the bohemian lance-corporal. Ideally, I would be looking for some event – a version of the Beer Hall Putsch perhaps – that has discredited the Nazis, and revealed early on their danger to Germany.
• There would be no WWII as such, rather a series of large, local conflicts somewhat intertwined, in an ideological cold war.
The above is very much a brain-dump, so I am keen for any feedback.
What I am looking for I suppose is realistic ways that the Germans are able to (read allowed to) begin re-armament in the early inter-war period.
One way to do so, I like this because it might allow the Germans to complete construction of all / some of the ships I listed in my OP, would be in reaction to greater Soviet success in their war with Poland.
Another would be for the Germans to be allowed to expand in the aftermath of a Great British Strike in 1925 leading to a Communist Britain – more hard-line than that posited in Lord Bribane's very excellent timeline Bayonets won’t cut Coal.
In both cases I would imagine German re-armament would be allowed under conventions amending the military clauses of the ToV. Amendment of the reparations clauses would be important here too, as well as being potentially more controversial from the pov of the Entente nations.
Ideally I would want both of these events to occur, with a Second American Civil War breaking out at some point as well. Obviously the sequence of events would be great importance, otherwise I would be overworking the ASBs and butterfly-nets!
My desired end result would be a multipolar world in a state of extreme upheaval:
• Germany is again in the front-rank of the Great Powers; an uneasy détente has developed between the Reich and the French Third Republic as they face the revolutionary powers.
• Internally, Germany has benefited from an equally uneasy détente between the Social Democrats and Monarchist Conservatives.
• The Nazis remain a fringe group; anti-Semitism still exists in Germany, but is not fostered as it was under the bohemian lance-corporal. Ideally, I would be looking for some event – a version of the Beer Hall Putsch perhaps – that has discredited the Nazis, and revealed early on their danger to Germany.
• There would be no WWII as such, rather a series of large, local conflicts somewhat intertwined, in an ideological cold war.
The above is very much a brain-dump, so I am keen for any feedback.
Well, if you want an American Civil War version 2, you will need (and I am not sure even that would do the trick) a much more severe Great Depression with somehow bungled response of the federal government... However, any more severe depression just leads to Nazis being stronger earlier and well, with obvious result, the one you want to avoid.
Since I'm feeling rather smart ass today, I would like to point out that Hitler was only called the "bohemian corporal" because of a wrong assumption on the part of Hindenburg (someone told him that Hitler was from Braunau and the only Braunau Hindenburg knew was in Czechia). Sorry but I couldn't resist
Deleted member 1487
Since I'm feeling rather smart ass today, I would like to point out that Hitler was only called the "bohemian corporal" because of a wrong assumption on the part of Hindenburg (someone told him that Hitler was from Braunau and the only Braunau Hindenburg knew was in Czechia). Sorry but I couldn't resist
And in WW1 Gefreiter meant private first class, not corporal, as it had no command responsibilities. Hitler was specifically marked as not having leadership potential by the German army.
Since I'm feeling rather smart ass today, I would like to point out that Hitler was only called the "bohemian corporal" because of a wrong assumption on the part of Hindenburg (someone told him that Hitler was from Braunau and the only Braunau Hindenburg knew was in Czechia). Sorry but I couldn't resist
No worries - that is quite interesting - I stand corrected. Hitler was from the Bohemian part of the ald A-H Empire though, right?
I was hoping for a plausible set of events that would lead to ACW.2 leading on from the fall of the United Kingdom to the British People's Republic. I am aware of the dangers inherent here of the possible rise of Hitler and his ilk, but I was working on the basis that a far more 'positive conservative' reaction in Germany, led by the co-operation of the SPD/Monarchists, stomps down hard on the extremists of both the left and the right.
marathag
Banned
Maybe go for the M1928 Christie convertible tanks, that aren't.
Leave the treads off, and just run them as armored cars at first
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YjWPgCkjgIQ#t=62
Leave the treads off, and just run them as armored cars at first
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YjWPgCkjgIQ#t=62