Russians adopt Islam as state religion instead of Eastern Orthodox

Bmao

I'm not sure if this question has been asked, but what circumstances would make it possible for the Rus to adopt Islam as their state religion instead of Eastern Orthodoxy?

This has a rather early POD, back in its formative years, but if Islam is adopted, what would a Rus state's relations with Christian Europe be?
 

M. Adolphe Thiers

Bmao said:
I'm not sure if this question has been asked, but what circumstances would make it possible for the Rus to adopt Islam as their state religion instead of Eastern Orthodoxy?

This has a rather early POD, back in its formative years, but if Islam is adopted, what would a Rus state's relations with Christian Europe be?
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I think the Baltic Crusade would gain a lot more support from the rest of Europe than OTL. Probably even see crusades into Russia.
 

Summoner

ASB.

Vladimir the Great who chose the Russian state religion said: "Drinking is the joy of all Rus'. We cannot exist without that pleasure."
 

Zlorfik

Banned
Vladimir converts to islam
The story about alcohol being the main reason against it is one of those nice parables people like to bandy about.

We don't know all his motivations, but at least part of the reason was probably the powerful byzantine influence in the black sea area. Weaker byzantium, weaker influence, less of an incentive to convert for the russkies
 

Bmao

Summoner said:
ASB.

Vladimir the Great who chose the Russian state religion said: "Drinking is the joy of all Rus'. We cannot exist without that pleasure."
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I have to disagree that because the Russians drink alcohol would make adoption of Islam ASB. Islam could certainly be flexible enough in its interpretation of alcoholism to appeal to the Rus, who if we have a POD before 1000 AD is certainly doable to alter 'russian' culture to make it more easily accept Islam.
 

David T

On Islam and alcohol: The popular drink in Kievan Rus' was mead, with a fairly mild alcoholic content. (Wine was for the aristocrats only.) I suppose it might have been possible for Islamic authorities to tolerate mead--as they did kumiss, the fermented mare's milk which was the favorite drink of Turkic nomads. "Though the Koran prohibits wine — and the Kazak are faithful Muslims — the nomads at Timurlik said the Koran spoke only of wine, and so it was all right to enjoy kumiss." http://books.google.com/books?id=dXf1UJg-x20C&pg=PA148

In any event, entertaining as the "joy of the Rus" account in the Primary Chronicles may be, http://novaonline.nvcc.edu/eli/evans/his101/documents/chronicle.html [1] the real reason Vladimir decided on Orthodox Christianity was political. In 987 Vladimir put down a rebellion against the co-emperors of Byzantium, and demanded the hand of their sister Anna in return. They replied that they would agree only if Vladimir converted to Christianity. (Even after he converted, though, they tried to put the marriage off. Only the Rus' seizure of the Byzantine-held Crimean city of Cherson finally put an end to the Byzantines' stalling.) IMO, given the influence of Byzantium and given the fact that Orthodox Christianity had existed among the Rus' even before Vladimir's conversion, Orthodoxy was always most likely to be the religion the Rus' would choose after abandoning paganism.

[1] "Vladimir was visited by Bulgars of Muslim faith, who said, "Though you are a wise and prudent prince, you have no religion. Adopt our faith and revere Mahomet." Vladimir inquired about the nature of their religion. They replied that they believed in God, and that Mahomet instructed them to practice circumcision, to eat no pork, to drink no wine and, after death, promised them complete fulfillment of their carnal desires. "Mahomet," they claimed, "will give each man seventy fair women. He may choose one fair one, and upon that woman Mahomet will confer the charms of them all, and she shall be his wife. Mahomet then promises that one may then satisfy every desire, but whoever is poor in this world will be no different in the next." They also spoke other false things which out of modesty may not be written down. Vladimir listened to them, for he was fond of women and indulgence, regarding what he heard with pleasure, but circumcision and abstinence from pork and wine were disagreeable to him. "Drinking," he said, " is the joy of the Rus. We cannot exist without that pleasure."" I would really like to learn what those "other false things which out of modesty may not be written down" were...
 
Russian

Russian

Bmao said:
I'm not sure if this question has been asked, but what circumstances would make it possible for the Rus to adopt Islam as their state religion instead of Eastern Orthodoxy?
Click to expand...
If the Muslim Arabs had conquered the Eastern Roman Empire (Bysantine) taking Constantinople that would have made the Rus to adopt Islam as their state religion. That would have made it pretty much inevitable.

About 90% of the Rus' trade is with/through Constantinople so who owns this city gives his religion to the Rus.
 

'Ezana

leopard9 said:
A Russia without vodka is about as ASB as it gets. Try again.
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Turkey, a Muslim country, also produces a lot of wine every year. I really don't see why people are equating Islam with no alcohol; and keep in mind that I am a Muslim. Not to mention that significant Muslim communities existed in Russia OTL (Volga Bulgars say hi), so it's more a question of having them spread than getting people to adopt it in the first place.
 

Nivek

leopard9 said:
A Russia without vodka is about as ASB as it gets. Try again.
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Like Ezana Say, that is pretty telling how caricatures work in society.

Regardless debates about alcohol, i think in mid term Islam would fit russia, even when ramadan is not fixed, that will teach how to endure even the worst winter. The rest, integration with Central Asia and Persia.

Would the Russian being Sunni ot Shiites(the later would like, to keep a clerical loyal)
 

Burton K Wheeler

Moderator
'Ezana said:
Turkey, a Muslim country, also produces a lot of wine every year. I really don't see why people are equating Islam with no alcohol; and keep in mind that I am a Muslim. Not to mention that significant Muslim communities existed in Russia OTL (Volga Bulgars say hi), so it's more a question of having them spread than getting people to adopt it in the first place.
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I believe three of the five hardest-drinking countries (Turkey, Bosnia, and Kosovo) in Europe are majority Muslim. Regardless, there doesn't seem to be a big difference in the drinking habits of Muslim Europeans and their close relatives. I.E., Turks and Bulgars, Bosniaks and Serbs have similar drinking cultures.
 

RGB

The POD would have to be deeper than Vladimir's reign, and probably have to do with the Volga/Caspian trade being more important than the Black Sea trade, something that was basically just memory by the 10th c.
 
Eivind

Eivind

Russian said:
If the Muslim Arabs had conquered the Eastern Roman Empire (Bysantine) taking Constantinople that would have made the Rus to adopt Islam as their state religion. That would have made it pretty much inevitable.

About 90% of the Rus' trade is with/through Constantinople so who owns this city gives his religion to the Rus.
Click to expand...

This is defintely the answer. Since Islam forbids alcohol this would simply mean that the Russians would eventually, after a period when paganism was gradually stamped out, stop drinking alcohol and the Russians would today not have been known as drinkers.
 

Burton K Wheeler

Moderator
Russian said:
If the Muslim Arabs had conquered the Eastern Roman Empire (Bysantine) taking Constantinople that would have made the Rus to adopt Islam as their state religion. That would have made it pretty much inevitable.

About 90% of the Rus' trade is with/through Constantinople so who owns this city gives his religion to the Rus.
Click to expand...

That was the POD for a Harry Turtledove short called "Islands in the Sea", though it was about Bulgars, not Russia, converting to Islam. The location was a bit vague, but Turtledove said he based it on the conversion of the Khazars.
 
Russian

Russian

Bmao said:
I have to disagree that because the Russians drink alcohol would make adoption of Islam ASB. Islam could certainly be flexible enough in its interpretation of alcoholism to appeal to the Rus
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From all I know the heaviest drinkers of the Middle Ages were the Mongols.

They even invented the way how to make strong alcohol at home - you take any alcoholic beverage (koumiss for example) in a leather bag and put it out into a winter cold (and we are speaking about Mongolian winter down to -50 degrees Celsius). After some time all water and other substances turn into ice and what is left is pure alcohol/spirit. It was called 'black koumiss' IIRC and was insanely expensive for a poor nomadic tribe.
But after these inventive guys conquered the world many of them could successfully drink themselves to death (alcoholism is the most frequent cause of death of the Genguizzides).

And even these Mongols (to the west from Mongolia proper) adopted Islam as this religion was extremely flexible.
It is a great fun to see how in Hulaguid Il-Khanid Iran the newly converted Mongols celebrated Muslim holidays:
- first three days they prayed and fasted in a proper Muslim way
- after that for three days they drank till they drop in a good old Mongol way.

My point here - even the heaviest drinkers in the world might adopt Islam.
And eventually, sometimes centuries later Islam would/might win against old habit of drinking alcohol.
 
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Summoner

All of you here who are saying that alcohol is compatible with islam surprise me. I thought one of the strongest tenets of islam was the ban on alcohol. it just surprises me the suggestion it can be handwaved away. From what I understand, the prohibition of alcohol exists in several places in the koran.

How would it be justified that a religion banning alcohol "allows" certain ethnic group to drink?
 

'Ezana

Summoner said:
All of you here who are saying that alcohol is compatible with islam surprise me. I thought one of the strongest tenets of islam was the ban on alcohol. it just surprises me the suggestion it can be handwaved away. From what I understand, the prohibition of alcohol exists in several places in the koran.

How would it be justified that a religion banning alcohol "allows" certain ethnic group to drink?
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It's not justified, it's just that Muslims are humans, and like all humans, they break the rules sometimes. And in the case of the alcohol rules, Muslims have broken the rules plenty of times. Alcohol prohibition is not exactly central to most Muslims' understanding of Islam, after all. It's not nearly as important as the concepts of monotheism and submission to God that are truly central to Islam. Also, this wouldn't be special for Russians; Muslims are probably drinking in the world somewhere right now. They drink wine in Algeria and Morocco for example, and there's a Turkish drink called raki. Lastly, referencing the Qur'an, you should note that it is mentioned that there will be rivers of wine in heaven, so it's not as clear cut as you think.

Summoner said:
Do you mean Russian Muslims like in Dagestan, Chechnya etc...? They were conquered from Persian, Turkic, Khanates etc... in the 1800s well after Vladimir the Great.
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I mean the Volga Bulgars who were contemporary with Vladimir.

Eivind said:
This is defintely the answer. Since Islam forbids alcohol this would simply mean that the Russians would eventually, after a period when paganism was gradually stamped out, stop drinking alcohol and the Russians would today not have been known as drinkers.
Click to expand...

Or they could keep drinking and be Muslim, like Moroccans and Algerians do with wine, or Turks do with raki.
 
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