AHC: Have MacArthur size power successfully
- Thread starter Gog (♀)
- Start date
Seize power? As in "oust a democratically elected government by a coup"?
BTW congratulations on your first post
BTW congratulations on your first post
Yes I believe that is what is meant. The only way I can see that is maybe after a nuclear strike on US soil and a martial law declaration?
Indeed. The U.S. isn't fertile ground for military coups. It's constitutional political system is way too deep-set.
MacArthur crossing the Pacific from Korea to restore order to a post-apocalyptic North America sounds like the premise for a wicked TL, mind.
PoD: Al Smith elected President, 1932; Great Depression further worsens in U.S.; general despair and national crisis; traumatized electorate elects a Socialist or third-party Progressive president via narrow plurality in 2016.
Seeing the direness of the situation, the general declares that "MacArthur has decided to go into active command in the field. There is incipient revolution in the air!"* The president-elect and the similarly problematic Congress are quickly arrested and MacArthur takes control instead, ruling with an iron fist....
*Actual quote from OTL.
Seeing the direness of the situation, the general declares that "MacArthur has decided to go into active command in the field. There is incipient revolution in the air!"* The president-elect and the similarly problematic Congress are quickly arrested and MacArthur takes control instead, ruling with an iron fist....
*Actual quote from OTL.
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The Soviets didn't have nuclear- capable planes that had the range to reach the US and return until 1957- and by that time Macarthur was retired.
Actually, during the war in Korea, the Joint Chiefs discussed giving MacArthur the authority to use nukes without Truman's approval, which Truman was not going to give. If the Joint Chiefs had given MacArthur the power to use nukes, he would have used them against China in direct violation of orders from the President, which would essentially be a military coup.
jahenders
Banned
That's simply NOT possible.
A) The Joint Chiefs didn't have that authority to be able to give it
B) The Joint Chiefs are directly responsible to the SECDEF and President and would not defy them that directly in any situation short of blindingly clearcut Presidential treason in the face of an enemy
A) The Joint Chiefs didn't have that authority to be able to give it
B) The Joint Chiefs are directly responsible to the SECDEF and President and would not defy them that directly in any situation short of blindingly clearcut Presidential treason in the face of an enemy
An ASB would have to be involved. Mac had his character flaws, but there is zero indication he ever had the slightest interest in overthrowing the duly elected government in favor of a military dictatorship.
Impossible. Sure, he could try. Sure, the effort may even result in the overthrow of civilian power.
But this is MacArthur we're talking about... he'll see someone with a camera and/or notebook, assume they're a journalist and get so distracted by his media-whore side he'd spend the rest of his life there prancing round in front of the camera...
Having him possessed would be the critical first step.
There may not be a bigger MacArthur hater on the Board than me, but for all his ego and bombast, and less than stellar judgement, he was very much a member of the Long Gray Line. He was effectively a 19th Century man, ho believed in honor, to a degree that most modern people can barely conceptualize. He had taken an oath and upholding it was central to his being.
Seizing power would be a total repudiation of that Oath. Running for office and getting elected, followed by FUBARing the country? Absolutely. A coup? Not a chance.
As a fellow Macarthur hater, here are a few off the top of my head.
Brought the Army down on the Bonus Marchers.
Bungled the Phillipines (note, anyone would have probably lost in 42, but getting your air force caught on the ground w/ 24 hrs warning?)
Took kickbacks from while in Phillipines, pre-war.
Took steps make sure that the Japanese who brought you the Pacific war remained in power as the "Liberal Democrats".
Acted disprespectfully to the Commander in Chief during his meeting at Wake.
Would have Korea from a regional conflict and turned it into WW3.
Brought the Army down on the Bonus Marchers.
Bungled the Phillipines (note, anyone would have probably lost in 42, but getting your air force caught on the ground w/ 24 hrs warning?)
Took kickbacks from while in Phillipines, pre-war.
Took steps make sure that the Japanese who brought you the Pacific war remained in power as the "Liberal Democrats".
Acted disprespectfully to the Commander in Chief during his meeting at Wake.
Would have Korea from a regional conflict and turned it into WW3.
There is actually an entire thread dedicated to the reasons that MacArthur was an utter bastard.
However, the short list:
Attacking the Bonus Army
Disobeying direct orders from the POTUS and attacking the Bonus Army a second time.
Manifest failure in leadership in the Philippines including his failure to move food supplies that would have allowed Bataan to hold until early 1943.
Attempting to hang the defeat in the Philippines on General Wainwright who was left behind to deal with the dog's breakfast that MacArthur created while the man was in a Japanese Pow camp and unable to defend himself.
Attacking the Bonus Army
His callus disregard for the lives of his troops, especially his Australian contingents.
His massive ego that caused him to take credit for every victory and blame others for every reversal.
His decision to land large forces on Leyte despite the utterly unsuitable terrain for constructing air bases (the reason he gave for the landings there) resulting in thousands of additional U.S. and tens of thousands of additional Philippine civilian casualties. As a self proclaimed expert in the PI he should have known better.
Attacking the Bonus Army
His failure to grasp the threat posed by PRC troops and the subsequent decision to violate the 100 km buffer zone that brought the PRC into the Korean War, which resulted in two additional years of combat and almost 30,000 additional U.S. KIA and uncounted losses among Korean civilians.
Attacking the Bonus Army
His repeated requests to use nuclear weapons in Korea to cover up his massive screw up outlined above.
BTW: Did I mention attacking Bonus Army?
CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
And let's not forget the time that he attacked US veterans who just wanted to be paid for their service. Nobody ever mentions the Bonus Army incident...
EDIT: And his gross insubordination and crossing the line between civilian politics and the military, which is what got him fired.
EDIT: And his gross insubordination and crossing the line between civilian politics and the military, which is what got him fired.
There is actually an entire thread dedicated to the reasons that MacArthur was an utter bastard.
BTW: Did I mention attacking Bonus Army?
I believe you did not mention that.
Seeing your points all as valid, I now see him as a bastard to the core.
WHY you make me hate MacArthur?!!
usertron2020
Donor
Ten hours, but still no excuse.
True, but with "Give 'em Hell" Harry S. Truman as pugnacious as he was, I am quite certain that he was looking for a fight regardless. Not that MacArthur didn't give him one.
Remember however that Truman was a guy who would develop a personal vendetta for Eisenhower as well, and Ike was someone so cool-headed that he got along with just about everybody this side of Bernard Law Montgomery. So, plenty of blame to go around at Wake on that particular score.There is actually an entire thread dedicated to the reasons that MacArthur was an utter bastard.
However, the short list:
Attacking the Bonus Army
Disobeying direct orders from the POTUS and attacking the Bonus Army a second time.
Attacking the Bonus Army
He and the Secretary of the Army telling Herbert Hoover, the President of the United States and his Commander-in-Chief (and a Republican!) to go to hell when Hoover tried to rein them in following the second attack on the Bonus Marchers
Attacking the Bonus Army
Manifest failure in leadership in the Philippines including his failure to move food supplies that would have allowed Bataan to hold until early 1943.
Attacking the Bonus Army
Attempting to hang the defeat in the Philippines on General Wainwright who was left behind to deal with the dog's breakfast that MacArthur created while the man was in a Japanese Pow camp and unable to defend himself.
Attacking the Bonus Army
Refusing to recommend Wainwright for the Medal of Honor following the surrender of the Philippines
Attacking the Bonus Army
Treating him like dirt on the USS Missouri during the V-J Day surrender ceremonies
Attacking the Bonus Army
His callus disregard for the lives of his troops, especially his Australian and Philippine guerrilla contingents
Attacking the Bonus Army
His massive ego that caused him to take credit for every victory and blame others for every reversal.
Attacking the Bonus Army
Claiming every victory for American forces as an American victory and every victory by Australian troops as an Allied victory
Attacking the Bonus Army
His decision to land large forces on Leyte despite the utterly unsuitable terrain for constructing air bases (the reason he gave for the landings there) resulting in thousands of additional U.S. and tens of thousands of additional Philippine civilian casualties. As a self proclaimed expert in the PI he should have known better [1]
Attacking the Bonus Army
His failure to grasp the threat posed by PRC troops and the subsequent decision to violate the 100 km buffer zone that brought the PRC into the Korean War, which resulted in two additional years of combat and almost 30,000 additional U.S. KIA and uncounted losses among Korean civilians. [2]
Attacking the Bonus Army
His repeated requests to use nuclear weapons in Korea to cover up his massive screw up outlined above [3]
Attacking the Bonus Army
BTW: Did I mention attacking Bonus Army? [4]
I fixed a lot here. You were way too soft on Dougout Dougie.
1] Didn't the Navy and Air Corps have a say in this decision?
2] Wasn't MacArthur depending on the ability to bomb the Yalu River bridges? To be fair denying him that right was probably the worst military decision to come out of the White House between the end of WWII and the Tonkin Incident.
3] Many Soviet generals shared his blindness to the cold hard realities of the effects of the usage of nuclear weapons. As the commanding general of the occupation of Japan,
HE REALLY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER!!!4] Not nearly enough
It's a balancing act judging who held the other in more contempt, Truman or MacArthur. But as the subordinate in that relationship, it was up to Mac to suck it up. Truth is, he had simply stayed too long.
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