Native American state in the United States

Lucius Verus · Oct 23, 2014

As the title says, is there a reasonable way to create a native majority state within America? I don't imagine that a native nation can hold its own against the United States but what about a native majority state within it?

In OTL the various native tribes of America were devastated by disease and were slowly grounded down by the industrial Europeans over the centuries through intrigue, infighting, and simple attrition. The few successful tribes that thrived like the Navajo lived on lands of little interest to the settlers.

Gurroruo · Oct 23, 2014

Irene said:
As the title says, is there a reasonable way to create a native majority state within America? I don't imagine that a native nation can hold its own against the United States but what about a native majority state within it?

In OTL the various native tribes of America were devastated by disease and were slowly grounded down by the industrial Europeans over the centuries through intrigue, infighting, and simple attrition. The few successful tribes that thrived like the Navajo lived on lands of little interest to the settlers.

Your best bet is for the Indian Territory to be kept just Native American by the US Government

LSCatilina · Oct 23, 2014

Wouldn't this be possible with a much bigger USA, making white demographics being more widespread on central and news lands (from OTL Canada or Mexico), and letting natives with more important local majorities in the less interesting places?

I wonder how much would be attractive a, relativly small, state in the Rockies in comparison of more interesting lands part of TTL America.

Bartholome de Fonte · Oct 23, 2014

LSCatilina said:
Wouldn't this be possible with a much bigger USA, making white demographics being more widespread on central and news lands (from OTL Canada or Mexico), and letting natives with more important local majorities in the less interesting places?

I wonder how much would be attractive a, relativly small, state in the Rockies in comparison of more interesting lands part of TTL America.

Cause throwing together many ethnicities that often had pre-Contact disputes onto one Rez worked out so well historically!

LSCatilina · Oct 23, 2014

Novak said:
Cause throwing together many ethnicities that often had pre-Contact disputes onto one Rez worked out so well historically!

Okay. Either you manage to find the one part of my post that implied it would work well, or you can try to be relevant.

Bartholome de Fonte · Oct 23, 2014

LSCatilina said:
Okay. Either you manage to find the one part of my post that implied it would work well, or you can try to be relevant.

Forgive me for not making a more lengthly response questioning the feasibility of (what I assume, the crux of the matter eh?) maintaining a continuous exile of Indigenous nations to some unwanted slice of land in this Grossvereinigte Staaten. In my humblest of opinions, by the start of the United States, the natives of North America are fairly fucked for maintaining much lasting political autonomy. I'd personally point to Alaska and its many (comparatively) unexploited Indigenous peoples for something more feasible than the Great Plains.

jahenders · Oct 23, 2014

The best bets are either:

1) American settlement generally proceeds at a slower pace. This delays extensive contact with some of the more Westerly tribes/nations and, perhaps, allows them more time to adapt to the coming reality. If the US met a Native American nation with a fairly strong central government and a more "western" concept of land ownership, they might have prevented incursion, but encouraged trade. If that nation built strong trading ties with the US, allowed a substantial (but not overpowering) immigration of whites (US and/or European), and that nation also faced other threats (other nations, other powers, etc), it's possible they might lobby for statehood and eventually get it.

2) Along the lines of the"Colonies can't agree on constitution" thread. The US is either never formed or starts with only a handful of states (the other colonies going solo). This creates a scenario where the various (now-independent) nation-states compete against each other in expansion and have occasional skirmishes/wars against one another or other colonial powers (Spain, etc). In this scenario, the fledgling US might acquire a Native American nation as an ally. Then, after years of working together, that nation might be invited to join and they might see benefit to doing so.

Legend-in-Exile · Oct 23, 2014

What if the Iroquois joined the revolution on the proviso that they be granted statehood after the victory? If they helped win the independence of the colonies in a big way would they not be better thought of?

As far as I recall certain founding fathers (I can't remember specifically) were rather impressed by the Iroquois (or at least made statements that could be construed in that way) and their governmental system.

Would this be feasible if the Iroquois threw their lot in with the colonists and helped them pursue independence? Or were the colonials too prejudiced against the 'savages'? If the Iroquois covered themselves with glory and assimilated somewhat to the culture of the colonists perhaps it could be possible?

David T · Oct 23, 2014

For people interested in the various proposals for a Native American state during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, I would recommend Annie H. Able, "Proposals for an Indian State, 1778-1878" (American Historical Association Report 1907), http://books.google.com/books?id=rcY8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA87 or https://archive.org/details/proposalsforindi00abel_0 She begins by noting that "The recent admission to statehood of Oklahoma, with its mixture of red, black, and white inhabitants, marks the definite abandonment of an idea that had previously been advocated at intervals for more than a hundred years. This idea was the erection of a State, exclusively Indian, that should be a bona fide member of the American Union."

Not that there haven't been a few such proposals in recent times, the one most often mentioned being the State of Navajo:
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/opinion/lets-make-navajo-nation-51st-state-147626
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...rdPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vFMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6784,7179746
http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.2307/20068034

Plumber · Oct 23, 2014

There was a thread on this recently, where I suggested that slavery not be expanded to the Louisiana Purchase except for Indians (tribal sovereingty), which would lead to many more whites entering into Indian tribes than OTL.

I think one has to do something creative like that in order for this to work because there just aren't that many Indians concentrated in one state. IIRC, by 1690 there were already more blacks in what would become the continental US than natives!

The Kiat · Oct 23, 2014

Legend-in-Exile said:
What if the Iroquois joined the revolution on the proviso that they be granted statehood after the victory? If they helped win the independence of the colonies in a big way would they not be better thought of?

As far as I recall certain founding fathers (I can't remember specifically) were rather impressed by the Iroquois (or at least made statements that could be construed in that way) and their governmental system.

Would this be feasible if the Iroquois threw their lot in with the colonists and helped them pursue independence? Or were the colonials too prejudiced against the 'savages'? If the Iroquois covered themselves with glory and assimilated somewhat to the culture of the colonists perhaps it could be possible?

I used that angle in my alternate American history story arch (Hostile Waters, River of Blood, etc). There's the State of Iroquois. One of the generals in the Union Army during the Great War was from there and three of his grandparents were Iroquois (don't know what tribes of the confederacy though). He eventually becomes military governor of the Eastern District of the former CSA and Sec. of War.

Yeah, the State itself came along because the Iroquois Confederacy sided with the rebels and as such weren't evicted from their land. It's the northern corner of New York.

fredonia · Oct 23, 2014

What about some way of reducing losses to disease? Say that smallpox comes over with the vikings, hits earlier than in OTL, but the native population has a chance to recover before meeting the colonial powers. Might this lead to a larger total native population by modern times?

Ultimate Paragon · Oct 23, 2014

fredonia said:
What about some way of reducing losses to disease? Say that smallpox comes over with the vikings, hits earlier than in OTL, but the native population has a chance to recover before meeting the colonial powers. Might this lead to a larger total native population by modern times?

A POD that far back would probably butterfly the United States away entirely.

Bartholome de Fonte · Oct 23, 2014

fredonia said:
What about some way of reducing losses to disease? Say that smallpox comes over with the vikings, hits earlier than in OTL, but the native population has a chance to recover before meeting the colonial powers. Might this lead to a larger total native population by modern times?

Such an early POD would almost certainly, nay, guarantee the United States wouldn't exist and defeat the OP. Even if Vinland lasted and spread a few illnesses, it would never be a magic cure all as often used in AH. There are still many more diseases that wouldn't have reached the Americas.

'Ezana · Oct 23, 2014

fredonia said:
What about some way of reducing losses to disease? Say that smallpox comes over with the vikings, hits earlier than in OTL, but the native population has a chance to recover before meeting the colonial powers. Might this lead to a larger total native population by modern times?

First, that would guarantee that the United States would not exist. Early colonies already had enough trouble as it were.

Next, if smallpox comes over with the Vikings, the Native Americans are not still going to be immune to smallpox 500-600 years later when other Europeans arrive. In order for the Native Americans to develop resistance to smallpox, the disease would have to become endemic, which it would have difficulty doing in the sparsely populated northern Canadian villages where the Vikings landed.

Tripledot · Oct 24, 2014

Could Florida have been an Native state?

Dathi THorfinnsson · Oct 25, 2014

This question has come up several times.

Your biggest problems are 1) there arent enough Indians, 2) that if they're a state they can prevent US citizens from moving in and 3) EVERY time natives were 'given' a piece of land that ended up containing something valuable, the natives got screwed over and the land taken away.

So. No. Not possible.

duke of bedford · Oct 25, 2014

Tripledot said:
Could Florida have been an Native state?

I think the Aleutian Island is more likely.

Alex1guy · Oct 25, 2014

Dathi THorfinnsson said:
This question has come up several times.

Your biggest problems are 1) there arent enough Indians, 2) that if they're a state they can prevent US citizens from moving in and 3) EVERY time natives were 'given' a piece of land that ended up containing something valuable, the natives got screwed over and the land taken away.

So. No. Not possible.

Yeah, you need to either nerf the United States or make it that they don't act massive pricks to the natives every time they catch a break.

SinghKing · Oct 25, 2014

Novak said:
Cause throwing together many ethnicities that often had pre-Contact disputes onto one Rez worked out so well historically!

You mean the Navajo Nation? Could that have potentially become a state in its own right?