AHC/WI: More German AFVs in post-WWII service

Is it possible for Germany to produce more of its WWII combat vehicles (with Allied supervision and restrictions, probably) to be supplied to several nations post-war? Will there be any potential customers?

Imagine a Panther, Tiger, or even a retrofitted Panzer IV serving in some future Cold War hotspots (like Korea), or in post-colonial Africa... :cool:

...or is this bordering ASB already?
 

Daewonsu

Banned
The world was already flooded by Shermans and T-34s, why would anyone want panzers unless it was already within their territory or was to be given for free?
 
IIRC a number of former Wehrmacht tanks and armoured vehicles did see further service areas like the Middle East or Africa but this was surplus/leftover equipment rather than specifically produced stuff. Considering public and governmental opinion at the time, the Morgenthau Plan and later JCS 1779 being rather popular ideas, combined with Germany effectively being banned from having a military for the first decade or so post-war I think this idea would probably be incredibly unlikely to happen. From the occupying powers' position why let Germany back into the market when they have their own large piles of war surplus to sell off/give away as military aid or domestic industries to support via arms sales? Plus there's the rather inconvenient fact that for all the good points they had and idolising they sometimes get a lot of German equipment was incredibly mechanically unreliable and maintenance hogs.
 

Delta Force

Banned
Using German surplus would lead to some interesting logistics. It wasn't the most reliable, and all the factories would be closed after the war. Acquiring surplus from the Commonwealth, Soviet Union, or United States would be far preferable because it works and can help establish or cement relations.
 
Is it possible for Germany to produce more of its WWII combat vehicles (with Allied supervision and restrictions, probably) to be supplied to several nations post-war? Will there be any potential customers?

Imagine a Panther, Tiger, or even a retrofitted Panzer IV serving in some future Cold War hotspots (like Korea), or in post-colonial Africa... :cool:

...or is this bordering ASB already?

Not completely ASB

IIRC France used the Panthers for 2 Tank Battalions post Liberation

One of the issues was that the various agreements between the allies included the dismantling of Germanies war industry.

So any units using German Tanks post war would have suffered maintenance issues once any existing stocks had run out.

Perhaps a POD could have been to have had part of the existing French Tank industry from 1942/3 retooled for the construction of Panthers or parts etc and have this factory fall intact into the Allies hands (or at the very least 'lightly bomb damaged') and the French government deciding to continue to build it in large numbers.

Edit: And then hire the German Panther designers/Engineers Post war and update it to the 'Panther II'
 
Have production lines for German tanks built in more Axis or occupied countries (to supplement German production) and have those lines survive in usable or reparable condition. Postwar, those nations might well have produced them for export or to re-equip their own armies. We might even see postwar development of the types involved.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
Didn't Switzerland use the Czech supplied Hetzers for years? Anyway the Tigers and Panthers were not the more reliable of AFVs... Having the E-series produced however would have been a different story (IMHO)
 
... Also, just because it was used later doesn't make it a good piece of equipment. The Israeli Air Force used notoriously poor quality Bf-109 fighters from Czechoslovakia made with leftover parts and surplus bomber engines because they couldn't get weapons anywhere else.

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Czechs supplied the new state of Israel with plenty of (German pattern) small arms and ammunition. Immediately after the war, thousands are just laying around Europe and could be hauled away for the price of scrap iron. The key to securing spare parts is to buy as many as possible and canabalise them for spare parts. eventually, you would need new-production rubber hoses, filters, spark plugs, filters, etc.
Sadly, the new-production (Czech-made) ammunition was crap. During 1945, a Canadian Artillery officer reported that much of the Czech-made artillery ammo fired at him were duds. Israel received the same quality of ammo. I recently test-fired a variety of Czech 7.92 long ammo. Proof marks included the Star of David and 1949. Half of the primers failed to ignite.

Also consider an arms-race between Third World countries. In 1945, Germany had more lethal small arms and tank guns.
If a Third World army wanted to out-shoot the Sherman's used by their neighbors, they could try to buy Panthers with long-barrel 75 mm guns. During the Cold War, a variety of nations up-gunned old Sherman's. Whether they chose to drive the Panthers, or install those long guns in Sherman turrets depended upon the supply of Panther automotive spare parts. Maybe they could talk a Czech factory into making some new Panther tracks with the old German tooling.
 
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Also consider armoured personnel carriers. Germany used thousands of half-track APCs during WW2 and even built fully-tracked prototypes. Allies lagged a long way behind in APC technology. Maybe post-war German factories find a loop-hole that allows them go sell (cross-country "trucks") to third world armies.
 
Also consider armoured personnel carriers. Germany used thousands of half-track APCs during WW2 and even built fully-tracked prototypes. Allies lagged a long way behind in APC technology. Maybe post-war German factories find a loop-hole that allows them go sell (cross-country "trucks") to third world armies.

Really?

I would have thought that between the Vickers UC and the US Half track + subsequant designs that if anything the reverse was true?

Also the WAllies made use of large numbers of 'defrocked' SP guns and turretless RAM tanks to produce more heavily armored 'bespoke' APCs such as the Kangaroo.

Got to give the Wallies the Advantage here.....
 
Have production lines for German tanks built in more Axis or occupied countries (to supplement German production) and have those lines survive in usable or reparable condition. Postwar, those nations might well have produced them for export or to re-equip their own armies. We might even see postwar development of the types involved.

Wow. This is a much better POD, I admit. :)
 
Have production lines for German tanks built in more Axis or occupied countries (to supplement German production) and have those lines survive in usable or reparable condition. Postwar, those nations might well have produced them for export or to re-equip their own armies. We might even see postwar development of the types involved.

Why? Most of the tanks are dead ends. The Panther has unsolvable reliability/mobility issues, Tiger I is obsolete, Tiger II is far too heavy and expensive… StuGs are pretty good and so are some of the other vehicles like the Jagdpanzer 38t, but that is about it. Not to mention most of these nations will be Soviet client states or American aligned, and will probably shift over to their equipment style soon enough - like as happened with Czechoslovakia originally, a lot of their designs did have German influence but then changed to Soviet. I'm sure there could be a very brief period of production, but I doubt that the German designs would lost very long, as they're either unsuited to the needs of the post-war states and their doctrines, or non-competitive.

France is something of a special case in that they were desperate to get something built and regain experience so used a bunch of Panthers and had a great deal of German influence on their designs, but besides them and the Czechs there really isn't much of a reason to do so. Even in the Czech case it was building Czech modified versions of German designs as they planned it, not standard German vehicles.
 
Czechoslovakia used few 100 Pz IV and Dtugs till yealy 50-ties as well as had app 50 Panthers refited. Some of them even with engine from T-34. Of course Hetzers but these were based on Czech design.

Most of German tanks were hold in reserves as long as possible by their technical state.
 
Weren't there plans for UK to build German tanks? I vaguely remember reading about such plans being floated but fairly quickly rejected.
 

marathag

Banned
Also consider armoured personnel carriers. Germany used thousands of half-track APCs during WW2 and even built fully-tracked prototypes. Allies lagged a long way behind in APC technology. Maybe post-war German factories find a loop-hole that allows them go sell (cross-country "trucks") to third world armies.

The Czechs did things differently from most other Pact Nations, as their Industry was in better shape, and for awhile, did their weapons the way they wanted, rather than cookie cutter Soviet designs

See this?

OT-810_rovny.jpg


No, not a 251, but postwar OT-810, made by Skoda




Not exactly the same
ot810_vf.jpg

Had a roof and Tatra Diesel engine


Now if you could find a way for the Czechs to be even more independent, selling to other nations.....
 
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