WI Swiss bank robbery

thaddeus

Donor
(inspired by thread about Axis in drug trade https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=330947)

what if a different leader of WWII Germany (Goering?) did not invade Poland in 1939 but instead invaded Switzerland?

(for the gold and a lesser extent the manufacturing base)

basically a bank robbery

(approx. 1.5 billion Swiss Francs physical gold in the country 1939 but it declined after that year as more was built up overseas, and that's the reserves of Swiss Natl. Bank not private stores)
 
Could they have actually invaded Switzerland in 1939? The country is famous for being really difficult to attack due to it's terrain and well decked military, was the 1939 Wehrmacht even up to the task? France and Britain might respond militarily faster since the former shares a border with Switzerland?
 
They have a decent chance of succeeding at their objectives though they wouldn't know it a priori - this is because the Swiss national defense plan involved a planned retreat to mountain fortresses (the National Redoubt) where they'd hold out for the duration of the war. The presumption was that any invasion would be aimed at the strategic mountain passes. As such, the Germans would be able to overrun the lowland factories and banks fairly easily, but only because the Swiss planned to withdraw from those areas without really defending them.

With that said, this would be an absolutely asinine and idiotic way to open the war.
 
Well, in 1940-41, they could have invaded Switzerland and would likely conquer it despite extremely heavy casualties, but in 1939? Even if they conquered it without resistance, Britain and France would have a head-start compared to OTL and the Nazis could possibly be defeated this way.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Also, since Switzerland is basically the bastion of European neutrality, then invading them means you can't actually spend the bloody gold anywhere... ;)
 
BAD IDEA

Also, invading Switzerland, no matter how successful, tells the world that a nation has NO respect for international law, and will invade anyone it sees a chance to rob. That might be enough to get France, Britain, and the USSR on the same page early...
 
What if a different leader of WWII Germany (Goering?) did not invade Poland in 1939 but instead invaded Switzerland (for the gold and a lesser extent the manufacturing base)? Basically a bank robbery.
Well it's nice to see that Hitler doesn't have the market cornered in being completely bat-shit insane when it comes to Nazi party leaders, because invading Switzerland is just fucking nuts for them to do. With any luck it should unite just about every country against them and see them being brought down in short order next time they try anything.
 
The truth is--if Hitler is still playing on the rules of trying to annex German populations to Germany, that does likely mean the Swiss would rate above Poland.

Swiss neutrality could also work against them as well. If Germany is able to get Swiss Nazis to manufacture a Casus Belli, and has decided to do this instead of Poland, this could also mean Italy getting a share and potentially joining that war.

If this is being tried instead of Danzig, I think that Swiss cooperation with the Allies is going to be very reluctant. Even in OTL, the UK and France didn't immediately declare war after Hitler invaded Poland--they gave him four days. In this case, I think Germany will "Win" German Switzerland fairly easily--but this allows Germany to flank the Maginot Line and I think the Allies are going in.

I wonder if the OTL 1940 Axis plan of cutting from Sedan to the Atlantic would be tried again, or if the War bogs down in trench warfare in Western Switzerland. Either way, Germany is probably able to loot much of Switzerland's gold.
 
This would be bad

Of all the money stolen by the Nazis, they can't spend it with the Swiss

The Germans gained a lot not invading the Swiss, more then they would have if they invaded.

Plus it means troops having to occupy and fight in the mountains, which means less troops to fight Russia or fight on D-Day, which means quicker German defeat
 

Deleted member 1487

Weren't the Germans selling the Swiss weapons around this time? Not only that, but as many have already stated, the Swiss were integral to German trade especially under British blockade. They in fact routed the forged British bank notes through the Swiss banks, plus the Swiss were hugely important for diplomacy, so there is far too much to lose by invading.
 

thaddeus

Donor
Could they have actually invaded Switzerland in 1939? The country is famous for being really difficult to attack due to it's terrain and well decked military, was the 1939 Wehrmacht even up to the task? France and Britain might respond militarily faster since the former shares a border with Switzerland?

The truth is--if Hitler is still playing on the rules of trying to annex German populations to Germany, that does likely mean the Swiss would rate above Poland.

Swiss neutrality could also work against them as well. If Germany is able to get Swiss Nazis to manufacture a Casus Belli, and has decided to do this instead of Poland, this could also mean Italy getting a share and potentially joining that war.

If this is being tried instead of Danzig, I think that Swiss cooperation with the Allies is going to be very reluctant. Even in OTL, the UK and France didn't immediately declare war after Hitler invaded Poland--they gave him four days. In this case, I think Germany will "Win" German Switzerland fairly easily--but this allows Germany to flank the Maginot Line and I think the Allies are going in.

I wonder if the OTL 1940 Axis plan of cutting from Sedan to the Atlantic would be tried again, or if the War bogs down in trench warfare in Western Switzerland. Either way, Germany is probably able to loot much of Switzerland's gold.

one of the benefits is that the Maginot Line does not extend along Swiss border, not that my scenario involves them trying to "rush through" Switzerland to France.

for defense Germany could bring in some of the large guns on the extensive Swiss rail system.

Switzerland only had population of 4 million (three quarters of whom were German speaking), would this rise to level of conquest of Poland (especially in tandem with USSR) a nation of 34 million? (in Allied concern, not human value)

some type of deal might be struck with Italy to swap Italian speaking population of Switzerland and German speaking population of South Tyrol? (their numbers and geographic location are remarkably close) it would be in German interest to keep Italy out of any conflict, they could become trading conduit?
 

thaddeus

Donor
Also, since Switzerland is basically the bastion of European neutrality, then invading them means you can't actually spend the bloody gold anywhere... ;)

Weren't the Germans selling the Swiss weapons around this time? Not only that, but as many have already stated, the Swiss were integral to German trade especially under British blockade. They in fact routed the forged British bank notes through the Swiss banks, plus the Swiss were hugely important for diplomacy, so there is far too much to lose by invading.

there were other options

Italy could remain neutral and Sweden did remain neutral. could conduct business through Spain and/or Argentina (and increase their influence and contacts with those countries)

as far as trade between the two? sacrificed far more curtailing their trade with KMT China to ally with Japan and invading USSR ending their deals?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
there were other options

Italy could remain neutral and Sweden did remain neutral. could conduct business through Spain and/or Argentina (and increase their influence and contacts with those countries)

as far as trade between the two? sacrificed far more curtailing their trade with KMT China to ally with Japan and invading USSR ending their deals?
I don't mean just because SWI doesn't exist any more, I mean because you've done the geopolitical account of robbing the bank - everyone knows it's stolen money, and that you'll invade whoever the heck you want.
 
Swiss neutrality could also work against them as well. If Germany is able to get Swiss Nazis to manufacture a Casus Belli, and has decided to do this instead of Poland, this could also mean Italy getting a share and potentially joining that war.
The Swiss Nazi Party was tiny to the point of being almost nonexistent. Switzerland's independence was guaranteed by everyone in the Treaty of Paris (1815.)

If this is being tried instead of Danzig, I think that Swiss cooperation with the Allies is going to be very reluctant. Even in OTL, the UK and France didn't immediately declare war after Hitler invaded Poland--they gave him four days. In this case, I think Germany will "Win" German Switzerland fairly easily--but this allows Germany to flank the Maginot Line and I think the Allies are going in.

For one thing, an attack into France from Switzerland would immediately run into the Jura mountains. For another, any German invasion would only succeed in securing a corridor through Switzerland due to the planned withdrawal of the Swiss Army. This leaves a citizen army of 500,000 in heavily fortified mountain terrain directly on the German flank. Any coordinated attack would quickly cut off the German spearheads.

I wonder if the OTL 1940 Axis plan of cutting from Sedan to the Atlantic would be tried again, or if the War bogs down in trench warfare in Western Switzerland. Either way, Germany is probably able to loot much of Switzerland's gold.

Switzerland only had population of 4 million (three quarters of whom were German speaking), would this rise to level of conquest of Poland (especially in tandem with USSR) a nation of 34 million? (in Allied concern, not human value)

some type of deal might be struck with Italy to swap Italian speaking population of Switzerland and German speaking population of South Tyrol? (their numbers and geographic location are remarkably close) it would be in German interest to keep Italy out of any conflict, they could become trading conduit?

Describing Switzerland as "German speaking" is a misnomer. Swiss German is unintelligible to standard German speakers. (Hence the Swiss typically learn standard German as their second language as well.) The comparison would be to e.g. Guangxi or other areas of China where people speak the local languages and learn Mandarin as the lingua franca. Moreover, there was exceedingly little support in Switzerland for joining Nazi Germany; the population would likely resist bitterly to the end.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Oh, you can always spend gold somewhere. Pretty much everywhere, actually.

Not if you've just invaded a country whose independence is guaranteed by just about everyone. Who would you try to buy from, who you couldn't already buy from if you were Germany?
Turkey? That's about it.

Large injections of cash help Germany pre-war, because that's when she can still buy on the international market. By the time war starts, buying things on the international market will only result in your ships full o' stuff being stopped by helpful navigators flying the white ensign and informing you that Liverpool is that way.
 
Not if you've just invaded a country whose independence is guaranteed by just about everyone. Who would you try to buy from, who you couldn't already buy from if you were Germany?
Turkey? That's about it.

Large injections of cash help Germany pre-war, because that's when she can still buy on the international market. By the time war starts, buying things on the international market will only result in your ships full o' stuff being stopped by helpful navigators flying the white ensign and informing you that Liverpool is that way.
Somehow I don't think Stalin is too picky about gold laundering when it helps the People's Cause. Certainly he didn't seem too concerned about heisting Madrid.

He'll just negotiate a deal for Germany to surrender the gold to the USSR for 'safekeeping' until Switzerland is liberated. ;)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Somehow I don't think Stalin is too picky about gold laundering when it helps the People's Cause. Certainly he didn't seem too concerned about heisting Madrid.

He'll just negotiate a deal for Germany to surrender the gold to the USSR for 'safekeeping' until Switzerland is liberated. ;)

Yes, but the USSR were giving Germany a crapton of stuff OTL. I mean, ungodly amounts - on credit, to boot, which the Germans never had to repay on account of invasion.
So Germany isn't really up on OTL until mid-1941, and it's lower in the sense of not having captured the French factories or indeed the Polish ones.
 
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