Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck
Banned
A challenge - make the Dutch Republic stronger and more concentrated on European affairs and not on colonial matters and then make it unite Germany instead of Prussia.
The first part is easy. A better 80 Years War goes a long way. Keeping all the Dutch speaking border areas, keep Hainaut and Artois Dutch speaking instead of French. The farther back you go the easier it gets.
The second part is impossible. The Dutch aren't German. The Germans aren't Dutch. Unless you go so far back in the past that the discussion of Prussia is irrelevant, like 1066 AD or so.
Wrong. The Dutch people did not consider themselves German. This was certainly the case in the late stages of the Dutch revolt, but I would say it happened a lot earlier. The Dutch were one of the least German parts of the HRE. They were already quite independent in the late middle ages. With a POD of 1648 or later it is simply impossible for the Netherlands to unite or even expand extensively into Germany. They simply did not care about it. There was nothing (or at least not much) to gain for the Dutch in Germany.That's not true. Until 17th century all continental West Germanic peoples called their language Duits/Deutsch until the Dutch started calling their language Nederlands. In 17-18th century most of notthern Germany still spoke Low German which is pretty much a different language from written German - much closer to Dutch.
And then concept of national identity as we know today was absent.
Until 17th century all continental West Germanic peoples called their language Duits/Deutsch until the Dutch started calling their language Nederlands. In 17-18th century most of notthern Germany still spoke Low German which is pretty much a different language from written German - much closer to Dutch.
And then concept of national identity as we know today was absent.
Impossible during the Dutch republic, because of the way the Dutch republic worked. Even more impossible in the 19th century since the Dutch were too poor to be relevent (and Germany too strong). Impossible in the 20th century because of the democratic and neutral tradition and because of the political division in the Netherlands. That is besides the fact that nobody cared about Germany.What if the Dutch had a leader like Hitler who told them that the German states were in need of help from the Nederlands and was thus able to get a military expedition to take say Hanover ,Oldenburg .With possibly Westphalia .
When I say Hitler I don`t necessarily mean a genocidal lunatic who tries to destroy everything he does not like .I mean someone who could get the people to follow him in any of his schemes .
Well, not beyond East Frisia, anyway, and that was only because the cities there were Calvinist.Impossible during the Dutch republic, because of the way the Dutch republic worked. Even more impossible in the 19th century since the Dutch were too poor to be relevent (and Germany too strong). Impossible in the 20th century because of the democratic and neutral tradition and because of the political division in the Netherlands. That is besides the fact that nobody cared about Germany.
The Dutch aren't German. The Germans aren't Dutch.
Just because something is an artificial invention, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is still true that the Dutch identity was created during (and even before) the Dutch revolt and that a division between the Netherlands and (what would later become) Germany existed in the 17th century. The Dutch weren't German and after that point there was no way the Dutch would consider themselves German, while the Netherlands still exists. The only way for the netherlands to become German is by Germany to conquer them (and in that case it would take a couple of generations and cultural oppression by the Germans to accomplish it).That is complete nonsense. There is no such thing as "German", "Dutch", "French", "Spanish" and so on. These are just artificial inventions.
That is complete nonsense. There is no such thing as "German", "Dutch", "French", "Spanish" and so on. These are just artificial inventions. What exist are dialect continuums and ethnic/national emotions based on an understanding of ethnicity/nationality that could just as well have had different borders. There are large variations when it comes to the dialects of Germany. It is not like everyone speak standard German.
Just because something is an artificial invention, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is still true that the Dutch identity was created during (and even before) the Dutch revolt and that a division between the Netherlands and (what would later become) Germany existed in the 17th century. The Dutch weren't German and after that point there was no way the Dutch would consider themselves German, while the Netherlands still exists. The only way for the netherlands to become German is by Germany to conquer them (and in that case it would take a couple of generations and cultural oppression by the Germans to accomplish it).
Indeed. Even at the start of the Dutch Revolt, when any sense of a Dutch nation was an upper-class fantasy more informed by Batavian proto-nationalism than any established shared identity, that Dutch-ness was separate from the ill-defined but still extant conceptions of what 'German' meant.Just because something is an artificial invention, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is still true that the Dutch identity was created during (and even before) the Dutch revolt and that a division between the Netherlands and (what would later become) Germany existed in the 17th century. The Dutch weren't German and after that point there was no way the Dutch would consider themselves German, while the Netherlands still exists. The only way for the netherlands to become German is by Germany to conquer them (and in that case it would take a couple of generations and cultural oppression by the Germans to accomplish it).
Are you saying that dutch is just a dialect of German? If you are, then buddy I hate to disappoint you but dutch and even low German (and Frisian and English, not to mention standard German and high German) are still mutually unintelligible with each other (they are similar, but you cannot understand someone speaking Frisian if you are speaking dutch and vice-versa), and that is the definition for separate languages, and everyone accepts those. Same applies to the Iberian languages (each a separate language in their own right, but too many to list) to each other (galacian to Portuguese, castillian to leonese, etc), french to occitan (and Catalan, nobody really knows if occitan and Catalan are dialects or separate languages), and north Italian to central and south Italian. And Sardinian, which is in a category all of its own. These languages could have evolved differently, but dutch is a descendant from Frankish, while German (and low German) is a descendant from aleminaic, making them destined to ALWAYS be separate languages unless one replaced the other.
Standard German is Hochdeutsch while Low German is Saxon and in reality a wholly different language. And 'Franconian' is a misnomer; Low Frankish is a bit more proper (since Franconia has nothing to do with it), and the Low Frankish dialects in Germany (around Cleves etc.)are very moribund.Standard German and the low German dialects are also mutually unintelligible with each other. Your definition of a language is, by the way, not universally used. For instance Norwegian and Swedish are clearly mutually intelligible, but are still considered different languages. The reason is partly that they have different written standards, but probably more important, the rather unscientific reason that they are used in different countries. Nationalist definitions unfortunately tend to overrule linguistic ones. By the way, Franconian dialects are spoken in both Germany and the Netherlands.