WI there was a sizeable Christian population in south India.

Ameck16 · Mar 26, 2015

POD st.Thomas manages to convert a reasonable area in south India and a Christian state appears in that area during the middle ahead how would that effect the colonisation of the subcontinent by the British and if everything went like the OTL how would Indian politics be effected and how would Indian cheitianity differ from it's western counter part.

Population of Christian Indians ~ 100 million around the modern states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala.

Anaxagoras · Mar 26, 2015

Ameck16 said:
POD st.Thomas manages to convert a reasonable area in south India and a Christian state appears in that area during the middle ahead how would that effect the colonisation of the subcontinent by the British and if everything went like the OTL how would Indian politics be effected and how would Indian cheitianity differ from it's western counter part.

With such an early and significant POD, there is no chance whatsoever that history would unfold in the same manner as OTL.

Fascinating POD, though.

Ameck16 · Mar 27, 2015

Anyone else.

Escape Zeppelin · Mar 27, 2015

I agree with Anaxagoras that this would cause really massive butterflies. The Indian Ocean trade routes are going to have a significant Christian presence and I could see a scenario where Islamic expansion to southeast Asia is thwarted or replaced by Christianity if Islam even still exists.

With ten percent of Indians as Christians I think that it's likely that Europe and the East will have better and stronger lines of communication. Indians will want to pilgrimage to the Holy Land and at 10% will have enough wealth and positions in Indian society that Indian visitors to Palestine won't be unheard of.

ramones1986 · Mar 27, 2015

I'm thinking of its effects on the caste system, culture, and especially literature; would Sangam still be relevant?

Clandango · Mar 27, 2015

How would this state be religiously? Lots of states throughout the subcontinent had the rulers and subjugated as different religions. I do not believe the area would be part of a unified India if the Dravidian south were to be mostly Christian of one sort or another. They are in an area which seemed to have managed to avoid the constant invasions of Hindu and Muslim conquerors. Which had happen anyways. Someone at the church I go to is form Kerala and mentioned how the Portuguese managed to keep the Christians alive when there was a bounty on the life of every Christian in the region.

Also, what do you guys think of the Dravidians and Ethiopians? Will they be buddy-buddy, at least if the Ethiopiac Christians manage to keep a coastline?

Sian · Mar 27, 2015

ramones1986 said:
I'm thinking of its effects on the caste system, culture, and especially literature; would Sangam still be relevant?

I guess it much of it depends on how syncretic the St.Thomas Christians ends up being.

As for the Indian Caste system it is, at least superficially, similar enough (from a layman view) to the western Feudal system with Royals over Nobles, over merchants over peasants over Slaves/Serfs, that it should be able to lean on much of the same theology as the Latin Church does in support of that.

But really, it probably also depend on how much communication the St.Thomas Christians have with the West, as otherwise they're likely to be to distantly related to understand each other, even if they well aware of their 'sibling' relationship

Ashtagon · Mar 27, 2015

I'd expect Christianity to replace Islam in Bangladesh, Indonesia, and that general region of the world.

Without regular European contact, it would likely have become heterodox by the time Europeans start the whole global exploration thing in the mid-2nd millennium. They'd get more or less the same treatment that Abyssinia got. Attempts would be made to bring them back into the Catholic tradition by Catholics, possibly with harsh consequences if they refuse. Protestants may be more accepting, since they had already denied the principle of the One True Church.

With Indian independence, it is quite likely that the partition would end up being three-way, with a Christian south India & Bangladesh.

Ameck16 · Mar 27, 2015

Ashtagon said:
I'd expect Christianity to replace Islam in Bangladesh, Indonesia, and that general region of the world.

Without regular European contact, it would likely have become heterodox by the time Europeans start the whole global exploration thing in the mid-2nd millennium. They'd get more or less the same treatment that Abyssinia got. Attempts would be made to bring them back into the Catholic tradition by Catholics, possibly with harsh consequences if they refuse. Protestants may be more accepting, since they had already denied the principle of the One True Church.

With Indian independence, it is quite likely that the partition would end up being three-way, with a Christian south India & Bangladesh.

Since Christianity woul have a head start than the otl could it spread further eat into Korea and Japan and even China.

riggerrob · Mar 28, 2015

OTL At least one muslim sect believes that Jesus Christ did not die on the cross. They believe that Herod's wife encouraged her husband to take down the bodies before sunset, so as not to sully the Jewish holy day.
Then supporters smugged Christ eastwards.
They believe that Christ travelled extensively through out the Indian sub-continent, married, fathered children, died of old age and was buried in Srinagar (sp?), in Northern India.
They believe that Christ had numerous conversations with Bhuddist scholars, which is why there are so many parallels between Bhuddism and Christianity.

Shahrasayr · Mar 28, 2015

riggerrob said:
OTL At least one muslim sect believes that Jesus Christ did not die on the cross. They believe that Herod's wife encouraged her husband to take down the bodies before sunset, so as not to sully the Jewish holy day.
Then supporters smugged Christ eastwards.
They believe that Christ travelled extensively through out the Indian sub-continent, married, fathered children, died of old age and was buried in Srinagar (sp?), in Northern India.
They believe that Christ had numerous conversations with Bhuddist scholars, which is why there are so many parallels between Bhuddism and Christianity.

True, in fact I met one of his claimed descendants when I went to Srinagar, Kashmir.

Lateknight · Mar 28, 2015

riggerrob said:
OTL At least one muslim sect believes that Jesus Christ did not die on the cross. They believe that Herod's wife encouraged her husband to take down the bodies before sunset, so as not to sully the Jewish holy day.
Then supporters smugged Christ eastwards.
They believe that Christ travelled extensively through out the Indian sub-continent, married, fathered children, died of old age and was buried in Srinagar (sp?), in Northern India.
They believe that Christ had numerous conversations with Bhuddist scholars, which is why there are so many parallels between Bhuddism and Christianity.

That brings up a good point just because their christan doesn't mean be that familiar to us today whatever sect of Christian they became would become uniquely indian.

ghappy1000 · Mar 28, 2015

Ameck16 said:
Since Christianity woul have a head start than the otl could it spread further eat into Korea and Japan and even China.

What about considering the distances involved? Once they turned Christian, they would be more concerned about pilgrimage to the Holy Land for overseas trips or conversion of fellow Indians.

Riain · Mar 28, 2015

I've heard that the Nasrani Christians are high up in the Caste system and are pollution neutralisers, things passing from low caste to them are deemed to have no pollution when passed on to other Hindus. There are others on this board who know everything about this subject, I'm merely trying to repeat what they have said.

Kishan · Mar 28, 2015

Riain said:
I've heard that the Nasrani Christians are high up in the Caste system and are pollution neutralisers, things passing from low caste to them are deemed to have no pollution when passed on to other Hindus. There are others on this board who know everything about this subject, I'm merely trying to repeat what they have said.

It is true that certain things that could be purchased like oil etc. were purified by the touch of a Christian. Such a belief came to existence because things purchased from merchants were not considered impure. Those things would be handled by many strangers and if those are termed impure you cannot buy anything.
In those ancient days most of the merchants were Christians or Muslims, especially in Kerala. The high caste Hindus refused to be merchants as they considered it something beneath their dignity to be a merchant. For them the right professions were only those of a soldier or a landlord. Hence if a polluted thing is touched by a Christian, it is like buying it from a merchant and hence purified. It had nothing to do with their caste status.

Workable Goblin · Mar 28, 2015

riggerrob said:
OTL At least one muslim sect believes that Jesus Christ did not die on the cross.

This isn't the belief of "one muslim sect," it's explicitly stated in the Qur'an:

Sura 4 said:
They did not kill [Jesus], nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them...they certainly did not kill him

(Quotes from the translation by M.A.S. Abdel Haleem, pg. 65)

thekingsguard · Mar 28, 2015

riggerrob said:
OTL At least one muslim sect believes that Jesus Christ did not die on the cross. They believe that Herod's wife encouraged her husband to take down the bodies before sunset, so as not to sully the Jewish holy day.
Then supporters smugged Christ eastwards.
They believe that Christ travelled extensively through out the Indian sub-continent, married, fathered children, died of old age and was buried in Srinagar (sp?), in Northern India.
They believe that Christ had numerous conversations with Bhuddist scholars, which is why there are so many parallels between Bhuddism and Christianity.

Shahrasayr said:
True, in fact I met one of his claimed descendants when I went to Srinagar, Kashmir.

That's fascinating - do you have any further sources on that? I'd like to read up on it.