AHC/WI: Saxony comes out of the Napoleonic wars larger

Your challenge is to have Saxony come out the Napoleonic wars larger than before.

The war must still end with France defeated.

Saxony must still have its core territories.
 
Your challenge is to have Saxony come out the Napoleonic wars larger than before.

The war must still end with France defeated.

Saxony must still have its core territories.

Saxony joins the prussian-russian alliance from the beginning. Napoleon threatet in this case to declare the King of Saxony disposed and to replace him with one of the saxon dukes (I think it was the duke Saxon-Coburg). After Napoleons defeat the "treacherous" duke is disposed and Saxon get his territory.
 
the congress of Vienna was all about drawing up a balance of power in Europe. desires of the small countries didn't much matter. Saxony wasn't a power, and Prussia wanted Saxon territories. OTL, Saxony sticking with France made it easy for the victors.

As stated, Saxony has to side with the victors from the beginning. Of course, that leads to it getting annihilated by the French, which means it's weakened condition makes it easier for Prussia to make good on it's desires.

You need to have Saxony emerge with some power.
 
the congress of Vienna was all about drawing up a balance of power in Europe. desires of the small countries didn't much matter. Saxony wasn't a power, and Prussia wanted Saxon territories. OTL, Saxony sticking with France made it easy for the victors.

As stated, Saxony has to side with the victors from the beginning. Of course, that leads to it getting annihilated by the French, which means it's weakened condition makes it easier for Prussia to make good on it's desires.

You need to have Saxony emerge with some power.

Saxony certainly was seen as a middle power (Mittelmacht). In 1810 they had a regular army of about 30.000 men.
It is useful to look at Bavaria, which was no great power either, but managed to come out of the Revolutionary Wars with quite a gain and could even exchange back Salzburg and Tyrol for Würzburg and the Palatinate. Yet, they had been a founding member of the Rheinbund.

So IMO better diplomacy by the Saxon government or ruler might have helped a lot. Historically, Austria had often supported/ allied with Saxony to check Prussian power in northern Germany, and if Friedrich August I. had given up the French alliance sufficiently before Leipzig, he might have not only kept his territory (save Cottbus), but even expanded into Thuringia. The only possible direction, as it was surrounded by Prussia and Austrian Bohemia on all other sides.

While Greater Saxony could still not be a true counterweight to Prussia, it would be a very interesting factor in post-1815 Germany, since it would have nothing to gain from supporting Prussia and much from pushing for a system with Austria on top and the five kingdoms (Prussia, Saxony, Bavaria, Hanover and Württemberg) on an ceremonially equal footing one step below.
 
Napoleon and his army are captured at the Beresina in 1812.

Saxony is thus able to defect to the anti-French side in good time, as did Bavaria et al. So King Frederick Augustus will be entitled to compensation (part of the KIngdom of Westphalia?) for losing the Duchy of Warsaw, as his Bavarian cousin was for disgorging the Austrian lands acquired when he had been Napoleon's ally.
 
Napoleon and his army are captured at the Beresina in 1812.

Saxony is thus able to defect to the anti-French side in good time, as did Bavaria et al. So King Frederick Augustus will be entitled to compensation (part of the KIngdom of Westphalia?) for losing the Duchy of Warsaw, as his Bavarian cousin was for disgorging the Austrian lands acquired when he had been Napoleon's ally.

Maybe the southern part of what would be Prussian Rhineland? The Area around the archbishoprics of Trier and Mainz?
 
the congress of Vienna was all about drawing up a balance of power in Europe. desires of the small countries didn't much matter. Saxony wasn't a power, and Prussia wanted Saxon territories. OTL, Saxony sticking with France made it easy for the victors.

As stated, Saxony has to side with the victors from the beginning. Of course, that leads to it getting annihilated by the French, which means it's weakened condition makes it easier for Prussia to make good on it's desires.

You need to have Saxony emerge with some power.

If that's the case then, what if you reversed the roles of Prussia and Saxony?

With Prussia with Napoleon and Saxony against.
 
Napoleon makes a slightly better showing in the war with Russia. He still loses a major chunk of the Grande Armée, but a more manageable one, and one which lets him make a Retreat in Decent Order back to Poland. He Bolsters his ranks with whatever Polish Soldiers he can find, while employing the same delaying and guerilla tactics Russia used against him to now slow the Russians themselves.

Prussia and Austria both smell the blood in the water and declare war. Prussia's armies mobilize slightly faster and, with reports underestimating Napoleon's Strength, march into Western Poland to fight The Emperor, who responds in kind. After a series of narrow victories wherein he presses ever further west, Napoleon is able to secure another one of his Trademark Upsets, albeit a Phyrric one, right outside Berlin itself, where he forces Prussia to accept Peace. Seeing that what he really needs right now is soldiers, the terms of the treaty are that Prussia with furnish Napoleon's Army with men and supplies. Thus he is able to somewhat replace his losses, although the Grande Armée is still vastly reduced compared to its original size.

At the same time, the Saxon and Bavarian portions of the Grande Armée had fled south from Poland in to Austria, where they meet up with the Austrian Army and promptly defect. Receiving word of this, the Kings of Bavaria and Saxony do the same, along with many of the smaller German States.

Austria leads their army, supported by the German States, north into Poland, forcing Napoleon to march back, where the two armies engage. With the Grande Armée already exhausted and with Napoleon having been unable to return to France to build a new army, the Austro-German forces manage to secure a decisive victory when Saxon Troops manage to not only break through the French Line, but carry that line all the way to Napoleon himself, who they caputre right then and there. The remaining French, Polish, and Prussian forces shatter and flee, only to flee right smack dab into the advancing Russian Army.

There you go. Saxony is now the Hero of the Coalition while Prussia is the dirty traitor. Saxony won't lose any territory but will probably gain some territory both from small German States near them, and possibly also from Prussia itself. Prussia won't get anything at all. If you wanted to get a bigger Mecklenburg nows the time to do it. The territory Prussia would have gotten in the West will likely got to Bavaria via an enlarged Palatinate, and Austria who will likely receive much of the rest of what would have been the Prussian Rhineland so they can serve as the check against French Expansion.

Prussia's humiliation ensures there won't be any German Dualism between Austria-Prussia, but rather a German Plurality with Austria as the head and the four Kingdoms of Prussia, Saxony, Bavaria, and Hanover as relative equals beneath Austria.
 
Possible but I think Unlikely.

If anyone is going to be taking Silesia from Prussia it will most likely be Austria. Since Saxony does not possess Poland, and won't, since Poland will go to Russia, I don't know if they would have much interest in Silesia. It would greatly expand the Frontier they needed to defend and mean that they would now be between Russian Poland and Austrian Bohemia. Not an enviable position as the two are going to have disagreements eventually.

Personally I think Russia and Britain, and even France, will push hard for Prussia to not lose too much, so it can be a counterweight, albeit a small one, to Austria in Germany. Austria and her allies are already gaining quite a bit, neither Russia nor Britain will want to replace a French Hegemon with an Austrian one.
 
What do you think the rough boarders would be in this scenario?

One idea I have is Somehow having it so all 5 of the kingdoms have land on the Rhine so they all have a vested interest in defending against France.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
I was under the impression that if Prussia got Belgium, Saxony would have kept the territories it lost to Prussia (Prussian Saxony)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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Very Rough possibilities as I see them, including possible points of dispute.

First off, Saxony; The darker Green is what they had as a state inside the Confederation of the Rhine. Given that Bavaria was able to keep most of their territory except for Tirol and Salzburg, basically the areas they had a dispute with one of the presiding Great Powers over, I expect much the same would happen here, except Austria had a previous claim to those lands while Saxony is largely composed of territory it had before this whole Napoleon thing started.

The Paler Green near Saxony are some of the smaller German States that I could see being Annexed into Saxony itself as a reward for their service capturing Napoleon in the possibility I put forward earlier. I would say that Dark Green + Paler Green is probably the largest Saxony you could get using the timeline I put forward. Any further expansion of Saxony would have to be at the expense of either one of the other Major States.

If Bavaria had not defected along with Saxony you might see them lose some territory, but it will only be small bits in the former Würzburg area. Taking anything more from Prussia would either cut them off from Silesia, or have Saxons knocking on the door of the Berlin Gates. I do think that Russia and Britain will push hard for Prussia to not Lose any significant territory, and so I think it is most likely they will simply leave the council with a confirmation of the Borders resulting from the Treaty of Tilsit.

One possible point of dispute is Posen, which is why I have it dual colored. Russia will want it, they wanted it historically, but Prussia will also want it. It could be used as a wedge to drive apart Prussia/Russia in the conference to ensure that Russia is willing to see Prussia receive nothing.

Hanover also gained more territory, having received even more of the Kingdom of Westphalia since Prussia isn't there to take any of it. I'm not sure how much more they could get, as it is in no one's interest to give Britain such a major satellite state on the Continent, not even Britain's.

And the big thing that would need to be decided is what to do with the Rhineland. Which is a Pain because much of it was composed of Prince Bishoprics which we're dismantled in the German Mediatization. In our Timeline they were not restored, but in this one they might unless there are some other Dynasties kicking around that land could be given to which I am not aware of. This is actually one of the possible benefits of expanding Saxony, as it would free up some minor noble houses who could be given small states in the Northern Rhineland.

Giving all of the Rhineland to Austria would make Austria a beast, and I don't think that is likely to happen. The current map is a bit of wishful thinking although I did let Hessen keep the chunk of the Rhineland they had before the congress. Likewise, I do not think that the territory will be divided up so all of the Victorius German States get a small slice, that would just make the defence uncoordinated and divided. If the congress decides to do something like that I think it is more likely to create a United Military Command under Austria which is responsible for garrisoning the Rhineland which the other German States are required to help support.

There's also the problem of Luxembourg, as if it is Austria getting the Rhineland to be a wall against France they may push for Luxembourg, as they do have the strongest Claim to it. If so, then I would say that the Entire Rhineland Buffer zone would likely shift southward. Bavaria will keep the Palatinate, but much of the rest will go to Austria. However parts of the North may be broken off and given either to Hanover, or to some of the Princes Displaced by a possible Saxon Expansion. Thoughts?

And then everything else is white because I don't know what might happen. I think Scandinavia will probably turn out the same way it was in OTL, but Italy could be radically different. If Austria is getting all of this extra German Territory it is very possible that they may not be getting as much Italian Territory.
 
First off, Saxony; The darker Green is what they had as a state inside the Confederation of the Rhine. Given that Bavaria was able to keep most of their territory except for Tirol and Salzburg, basically the areas they had a dispute with one of the presiding Great Powers over, I expect much the same would happen here, except Austria had a previous claim to those lands while Saxony is largely composed of territory it had before this whole Napoleon thing started.

I agree with you here.

The Paler Green near Saxony are some of the smaller German States that I could see being Annexed into Saxony itself as a reward for their service capturing Napoleon in the possibility I put forward earlier. I would say that Dark Green + Paler Green is probably the largest Saxony you could get using the timeline I put forward. Any further expansion of Saxony would have to be at the expense of either one of the other Major States.

If Bavaria had not defected along with Saxony you might see them lose some territory, but it will only be small bits in the former Würzburg area. Taking anything more from Prussia would either cut them off from Silesia, or have Saxons knocking on the door of the Berlin Gates. I do think that Russia and Britain will push hard for Prussia to not Lose any significant territory, and so I think it is most likely they will simply leave the council with a confirmation of the Borders resulting from the Treaty of Tilsit.

I think that Saxony could expand partially at the expense of Prussia in some way, but then again I am not really sure how.:confused:

Maybe in some incredibly creative way I/whoever reads this :rolleyes: have not figured out yet.:D

The Prussian enclave in Wurttemberg should be annexed into Wurttemberg, I think.

Neuchatel? Any ideas?

One possible point of dispute is Posen, which is why I have it dual colored. Russia will want it, they wanted it historically, but Prussia will also want it. It could be used as a wedge to drive apart Prussia/Russia in the conference to ensure that Russia is willing to see Prussia receive nothing.

Not sure who would get Posen. I think it could easily go either way, but I am definitely open to ideas. Anyone?

Hanover also gained more territory, having received even more of the Kingdom of Westphalia since Prussia isn't there to take any of it. I'm not sure how much more they could get, as it is in no one's interest to give Britain such a major satellite state on the Continent, not even Britain's.

I have no idea how plausible this is, but here goes.

I get the impression that the Britain/ the British Parliament would rather not have to deal with having Hanover, so what if upon the death of George III Hanover gets split off from Britain and ruled by one of his younger sons. I would think that this could allow for Hanover to be expanded without worrying about the British not wanting the extra land.

No idea if this works or not. Any ideas??

And the big thing that would need to be decided is what to do with the Rhineland. Which is a Pain because much of it was composed of Prince Bishoprics which we're dismantled in the German Mediatization. In our Timeline they were not restored, but in this one they might unless there are some other Dynasties kicking around that land could be given to which I am not aware of. This is actually one of the possible benefits of expanding Saxony, as it would free up some minor noble houses who could be given small states in the Northern Rhineland.

Giving all of the Rhineland to Austria would make Austria a beast, and I don't think that is likely to happen. The current map is a bit of wishful thinking although I did let Hessen keep the chunk of the Rhineland they had before the congress. Likewise, I do not think that the territory will be divided up so all of the Victorius German States get a small slice, that would just make the defence uncoordinated and divided. If the congress decides to do something like that I think it is more likely to create a United Military Command under Austria which is responsible for garrisoning the Rhineland which the other German States are required to help support.

There's also the problem of Luxembourg, as if it is Austria getting the Rhineland to be a wall against France they may push for Luxembourg, as they do have the strongest Claim to it. If so, then I would say that the Entire Rhineland Buffer zone would likely shift southward. Bavaria will keep the Palatinate, but much of the rest will go to Austria. However parts of the North may be broken off and given either to Hanover, or to some of the Princes Displaced by a possible Saxon Expansion. Thoughts?

I like the idea of the Northern Rhineland being divided up by some of the displaced Thurngian nobles. Any ideas on what sought of states would emerge as a result? Maybe Munster among others?

My idea was to have the Rhineland area bordering France be divided up between Bavarian Palatine, Austrian Luxembourg and the land between the two (not sure what to call it maybe Trier) annexed by Saxony. Would only three powers on the Boarder encounter uncoordinated and divided defense? I don't really know.


What would happen to the German confederation? Any ideas??
 
Am I misreading the map, or is Schleswig-Holstein British?

Wouldn't it be more logical to give it to Prussia, if she misses out on the northern half of Saxony? Britain was waiting eagerly for the connection with Hanover to lapse, and the las thing she's want is to be saddled with another German state in addition.
 
I was under the impression that if Prussia got Belgium, Saxony would have kept the territories it lost to Prussia (Prussian Saxony)
Actualy it is the other way around. Prussia did not care for Belgium at all and wanted Saxony. Prussia was willing to give up all of the Rhineland for Saxony. When it wasn't able to get all of Saxony Prussia was interested in the Rhineland again and not in Belgium. It was pretty clear that the Netherlands would get Belgium. Austria didn't want it anymore, Prussia didn't care for it and France wasn't allowed to get it. The only thing in question was the eastern border, which gave rise to the Luxemburg compromise (in personal union with the Netherlands, but part of the confederacy and defended by prussian troops).
 
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Okay, so some changes. First, I just made Holstein Denmark's Color. I had intended them to be in PU like historically, however I gave Holstein their own color. Specifically, I'm generally taking all of the country colors from Victoria 2 except Austria because then they would be white, and there's still a lot of white on the map already. if that works, then I'll also put Norway in Swedish Blue and Finland in Russian Green, again, same setup as historically.

So, one possible place for Saxony to take territory from Prussia; Prussian Altmark, similarly to this was annexed into the state of Saxony-Anhalt following WWI. If Saxony annexes Anhalt, freeing up Leopold III Frederick Franz it will have enough of a border to push for Prussian Altmark I feel. Shown stripped in Saxon Green. The Very Light Green is still the maximum extend I could see Saxony growing to, the slightly darker green is what I think they would want to annex more, their first priority.

I think giving Neuchatel to Switzerland outright is probably going to happen in this case. Wurttemburg annexing Sigmaringen could be averted as it is the homeland of the Hohenzollern Dynasty, but is also possible.

Now if Saxony does annex more of the states around it, as suggested the displaced nobles will likely be sent to Westfalen to govern some new states. In the new map these are the lighter grey with letters to help place names. Some of them are secularized Bishoprics, but some of them (Mark and Cleves) which Prussia had held before the war.
They are;
(Mu) : Münster
(P) : Paderborn
(M) : Mark
(C) : Cleves
(B) : Berg

This has the added benefit of restricting the Austrian Rhineland to West of the Rhine River itself, a fairly nice natural border. I really don't think Saxony will get to annex the Thuringian Lands and also a chunk of the Rhineland. If they're given a choice between more land in Thuringia or some of the Rhineland they're going to choose the lands close to home, especially if some of those lands are actually coming from Prussia itself such as Altmark.

The German Confederation will still be established with Austria as its head, and if anything it will be far more effective. There won't be any German Dualism because Prussia is coming out of this vastly weaker than they were historically and also absolutely humiliated. I mean in this timeline Prussia's performance in the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars was composed of getting their shit ruined by the French three times and never once competently standing up to them.

Saxony Hanover and Bavaria are all roughly equal in strength, and together might be able to stand up to Austria, but would still be weaker on paper at least. That said Prussia has likely been denied the services of von Moltke and Johann Nicolaus von Dreyse, so where they actually go is up for debate.
 
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I think its possible. Historically Britain and Hanover divided amicably using Victoria and differing succession laws as justification. I don't see why the same couldn't happen earlier with a division amongst brothers.

A larger Hanover which isn't bound in Personal Union with Britain and without being surrounded by a Large and Very Scary Prussia would probably be very interested in flexing its economic and possibly military muscles in Northern Germany.

They would also be one of the few German Powers of note to have a Coast.
 
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