WI: Earlier Motherhood for Catherine de Medicis

Kellan Sullivan

As it says on the label, what if Henri II and Catherine de Medicis start having kids earlier? OTL she only had her first kid at 25, and many of her children's health problems were ascribed to her use of remedies for her "infertility" such as drinking mule urine and ground up stag's antlers (amongst others). So, say her first pregnancy occurs in 1537 (when she's 16), and her obstetric history runs as follows:
Marie (b.1537)
Louis, duc d'Angoulême (1538-1540)
François II (b.1540)
Charles, duc d'Anjou (b. 1542)
Stillborn Daughter (1543)
Élisabeth (b. 1545)
Claude (b.1546)
Henri, duc de Berri (b.1547)
Stillborn Daughter (b.1550)
Marguerite (b.1552)
Louis, duc d'Alençon (b.1555)

How does France fare with a series of age monarchs? What does Catherine's future hold? Is she still a force to be reckoned within politics? Or does she get sidelined by her son(s)?

EDIT: I can see Marie being married to Edward VI as Élisabeth de Valois was OTL, only here there would be no wait, so if Eddie's health is the same as OTL, there is the prospect of a PoW being born before or shortly after he dies.
Also, alt-Mary, queen of Scots, would she still marry alt-François II or his younger brother, the duc d'Anjou?
 
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VVD0D95

Banned
Kellan Sullivan said:
As it says on the label, what if Henri II and Catherine de Medicis start having kids earlier? OTL she only had her first kid at 25, and many of her children's health problems were ascribed to her use of remedies for her "infertility" such as drinking mule urine and ground up stag's antlers (amongst others). So, say her first pregnancy occurs in 1537 (when she's 16), and her obstetric history runs as follows:
Marie (b.1537)
Louis, duc d'Angoulême (1538-1540)
François II (b.1540)
Charles, duc d'Anjou (b. 1542)
Stillborn Daughter (1543)
Élisabeth (b. 1545)
Claude (b.1546)
Henri, duc de Berri (b.1547)
Stillborn Daughter (b.1550)
Marguerite (b.1552)
Louis, duc d'Alençon (b.1555)

How does France fare with a series of age monarchs? What does Catherine's future hold? Is she still a force to be reckoned within politics? Or does she get sidelined by her son(s)?

EDIT: I can see Marie being married to Edward VI as Élisabeth de Valois was OTL, only here there would be no wait, so if Eddie's health is the same as OTL, there is the prospect of a PoW being born before or shortly after he dies.
Also, alt-Mary, queen of Scots, would she still marry alt-François II or his younger brother, the duc d'Anjou?
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An interesting question, one thing that has me wondering is, if Edward marries Marie, and they have a son, does this mean that there are greater relations with France, or greater tension?
 

Kellan Sullivan

Well, a French queen who's the eldest daughter of the king might give revived impetus to the English claim to France or parts thereof regardless of whether the Valois die out on schedule or no. Catherine herself suffered from several health problems, plus Henri was the son of the sickly Claude de Valois and her cousin, so it's not unreasonable to think that the Valois might still have health issues. OTL the only one of Henri II's kids who DIDN'T have any pressing health issues was Margot.
François II suffered from an abscess, unrobust health and undescended testicles.
Élisabeth (nothing is ever mentioned for her so IDK)
Claude was clubfooted and hunch-backed
Charles IX was tubercular (as had been his uncle François and aunt, Madeleine)
Henri III was apparently one of the healthier kids, not that's saying a lot
François d'Alençon suffered from scoliosis.

OTOH, most of Catherine's grandkids seem to have been rather healthy, Élisabeth's daughters were considered the strongest of Felipe II's kids, Charles d'Angoulême was 77, and if the info I have is right (but I'm skeptical), one of Claude's daughters, Anne, was 107 (my info says *Nancy 10.10.1569, +Nancy 8.8.1676) I figure it's either supposed to be 1576 or 1667, since her sisters' ages were:
the grand duchess of Tuscany (72)
The duchess of Jülich (42)
Abbess of Remiremont (75)
Electress of Bavaria (58)
 
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VVD0D95

Banned
Kellan Sullivan said:
Well, a French queen who's the eldest daughter of the king might give revived impetus to the English claim to France or parts thereof regardless of whether the Valois die out on schedule or no. Catherine herself suffered from several health problems, plus Henri was the son of the sickly Claude de Valois and her cousin, so it's not unreasonable to think that the Valois might still have health issues. OTL the only one of Henri II's kids who DIDN'T have any pressing health issues was Margot.
François II suffered from an abscess, unrobust health and undescended testicles.
Élisabeth (nothing is ever mentioned for her so IDK)
Claude was clubfooted and hunch-backed
Charles IX was tubercular (as had been his uncle François and aunt, Madeleine)
Henri III was apparently one of the healthier kids, not that's saying a lot
François d'Alençon suffered from scoliosis.

OTOH, most of Catherine's grandkids seem to have been rather healthy, Élisabeth's daughters were considered the strongest of Felipe II's kids, Charles d'Angoulême was 77, and if the info I have is right (but I'm skeptical), one of Claude's daughters, Anne, was 107 (my info says *Nancy 10.10.1569, +Nancy 8.8.1676) I figure it's either supposed to be 1576 or 1667, since her sisters' ages were:
the grand duchess of Tuscany (72)
The duchess of Jülich (42)
Abbess of Remiremont (75)
Electress of Bavaria (58)
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Okay interesting, could this perhaps mean an earlier marriage then for Edward VI, and a greater chance of securing the Tudor line? Implementing purtain feeling?
 

Kellan Sullivan

VVD0D95 said:
Okay interesting, could this perhaps mean an earlier marriage then for Edward VI, and a greater chance of securing the Tudor line? Implementing purtain feeling?
Click to expand...

Maybe, but if its a posthumous child, what would happen to the queen mother? Does she go back to Paris? Or does she stick around in London and influence little Henry IX to be more partial to the Catholics
 

Kellan Sullivan

Another marriage candidate for one of the older daughters is Felipe II. If Maria Manuela dies on schedule, then Marie might make an age-appropriate replacement come 1550. Or we might see a Franco-Portuguese match with Marie marrying Crown Prince Joao of Portugal and Juana of Spain marrying Edward VI.
 

Kellan Sullivan

I think in a conservative estimate of these alt-kids for Henri II, their marriages will possibly go as follows (candidates listed are as OTL for simplicity's sake):

Marie - Edward VI, King of England/Felipe II, King of Spain/Joao, Crown Prince of Portugal
François II - Juana of Spain?Mary, Queen of Scots
Charles, duc d'Anjou - princess of Lorraine/Bavaria
Élisabeth - Felipe II, King of Spain/Carlos, prince of the Asturias
Claude - duke of Lorraine/duke of Savoy/duke of Ferrara
Henri, duc de Berri - princess of Sweden/alt-princess of Poland
Marguerite - King of Navarre/King of Portugal
Louis, duc d'Alençon - princess of Navarre/English princess/Austrian archduchess

Any further ideas will be welcome
 

funnyhat

Kellan Sullivan said:
Well, a French queen who's the eldest daughter of the king might give revived impetus to the English claim to France or parts thereof regardless of whether the Valois die out on schedule or no.
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Not sure if I'm following you correctly, but are you speaking of Marie being queen regnant of France? That's not possible due to France's use of Salic Law.
 

Kellan Sullivan

funnyhat said:
Not sure if I'm following you correctly, but are you speaking of Marie being queen regnant of France? That's not possible due to France's use of Salic Law.
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No, I'm not suggesting Marie becoming Queen-Regnant of France, I'm suggesting that if the Valois die out as OTL, then the English king (a la Felipe II of Spain OTL) can claim that he (Henry IX) is a closer claimant to the crown of France than the Bourbons, a la Edward III. However, unlike Felipe's daughter OTL, he'd probably be married and Protestant, so no better of a claimant than Henri of Navarre. But, the English could see it as a reason to shake the French apple tree and see what falls out.
 

alex costa

Kellan Sullivan said:
I think in a conservative estimate of these alt-kids for Henri II, their marriages will possibly go as follows (candidates listed are as OTL for simplicity's sake):

Marie - Edward VI, King of England/Felipe II, King of Spain/Joao, Crown Prince of Portugal
François II - Juana of Spain?Mary, Queen of Scots
Charles, duc d'Anjou - princess of Lorraine/Bavaria
Élisabeth - Felipe II, King of Spain/Carlos, prince of the Asturias
Claude - duke of Lorraine/duke of Savoy/duke of Ferrara
Henri, duc de Berri - princess of Sweden/alt-princess of Poland
Marguerite - King of Navarre/King of Portugal
Louis, duc d'Alençon - princess of Navarre/English princess/Austrian archduchess

Any further ideas will be welcome
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Well this might actually benefit Portugal's history as well. A marriage of Marie with Prince Joao of Portugal will buttefly away Sebastian's birth. This alternate heir would probably have such different traits that lo and behold no Iberian Union would happen.
 

Kellan Sullivan

I've been wondering two things:
1) Bona Sforza disliked her son's marriage to Barbara Radziwillowna because, amongst other things, she had been angling for him to marry OTL Anna d'Este, duchesse de Guise et de Nemours. So might Marie be packed off to marry Sigismund when Barbara kicks instead of ANOTHER Habsburg archduchess?

2) Mary, QoS, when widowed by her first husband, expressed an interest in perpetuating the Auld Alliance by marrying Charles IX. Unfortunately for her, Catherine de Medicis was regent for her then 10yo son, plus she hated Mary, so the marriage didn't materialize. Might Mary be married to the second son here if a similar situation were to occur (what with them being closer in age)? Or would Mary just marry the second son from the get-go?

*To spare our sanity, Mary is the same as OTL. Daughter of James V and Marie de Guise who's two older sons die in infancy, and Mary becomes queen at a few days old.
 
Kynan

Kynan

I decided to fix up the titles and dukedoms btw.

Henry II of France (b.1519: d.1559) m. Catherine de Medici (b.1519: d.1589) (a)

1a) Marie de Valois (b.1537) m. Edward VI of England (b.1537: d.1553) (a), Sigismund II of Poland (b.1520: d.1572) (b)

1a) Edward VII of England (b.1553)

2b) Anna Jagiellon (b.1558: d.1560)

3b) Casimir V of Poland (b.1562)

4b) Barbara Jagiellon (b.1566)​

2a) Louis, Duke of Angouleme (b.1538: d.1540)

3a) Francis II of France (b.1540: d.1591) m. Mary Stuart, Queen of Scotland (b.1542: d.1593) (a)

1a) Henri III of France (b.1561)

2a) Louis de Valois, Duke of Alencon (b.1563: d.1566)

3a) James VI of Scotland (b.1565)

4a) Margaret de Valois (b.1566)

5a) Francis, Duke of Alencon (b.1568)

6a) Marie de Valois (b.1571)

7a) Robert, Duke of Ross (b.1573)​

4a) Charles, Duke of Orleans (b.1542: d.1561) m. Barbara of Austria (b.1539: d.1572) (a)

1a) Henri, Duke of Orleans (b.1562)​

5a) Stillborn Girl (c.1543)

6a) Elisabeth de Valois (b.1545: d.1605) m. Carlos, Prince of Asturias (b.1545: d.1568) (a)

1a) Miscarriage (c.1563)

2a) Maria Margaretha of Spain (b.1565: d.1566)

3a) Carlos of Spain (b.1567: d.1567)​

7a) Claude de Valois (b.1546: d.1599) m. Charles III, Duke of Lorraine (b.1543: d.1608) (a)

1a) Henry II, Duke of Lorraine (b. 1564)

2a) Christina of Lorraine (b.1565: d.1566)

3a) Charles of Lorraine (b.1566)

4a) Marie Antoinette of Lorraine (b.1568)

5a) Anne of Lorraine (b.1570)

6a) Francis of Lorraine (b.1571)

7a) Catherine of Lorraine (b.1575)

8a) Elisabeth of Lorraine (b.1576)

9a) Claude of Lorraine (b.1579)​

8a) Henri, Duke of Angouleme (b.1547: d.1578) m. Louise of Lorraine (b.1553: d.1601) (a)

1a) Miscarriage (c.1575)​

9a) Stillborn Girl (c.1550)

10a) Marguerite de Valois (b.1552) m. Henri III of Navarre (b.1553: d.1614) (a)

1a) Henri IV of Navarre (b.1587)​

11a) Louis, Duke of Anjou (b.1555: d.1609) m. Catherine de Bourbon (b.1559: d.1604) (a)

1a) Anne de Anjou (b.1581)

2a) Jeanne de Anjou (b.1583)

3a) Catherine de Anjou (b.1586)​
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

Kynan said:
I decided to fix up the titles and dukedoms btw.

Henry II of France (b.1519: d.1559) m. Catherine de Medici (b.1519: d.1589) (a)
4a) Charles, Duke of Orleans (b.1542: d.1561) m. Barbara of Austria (b.1539: d.1572) (a)
1a) Henri, Duke of Orleans (b.1562)
​
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​
Except that Charles de Valois, Duc d'Orléans/Angoulême was still alive until '45 (and possibly longer with a POD in '37). Thus Orléans is unavailable.
8a) Henri, Duke of Angouleme (b.1547: d.1578) m. Louise of Lorraine (b.1553: d.1601) (a)
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None of Henri II's sons were ever given the title of duc d'Angoulême OTL, so while it makes sense for the oldest son who died in infancy to get that title (although ICR if Charles de Valois exchanged Angoulême for Orléans, or if he held both dukedoms simultaneously (in addition to the dukedoms of Bourbon and Chatellerault)), the fact that the title was only recreated for Charles IX's bastard says something (not sure what though) IMHO.

10a) Marguerite de Valois (b.1552) m. Henri III of Navarre (b.1553: d.1614) (a)
Click to expand...

I wonder if Marguerite might not be married off to D. Sebastiao as planned, and leave one of her nieces to marry the Navarrese Protestant?
 

Kellan Sullivan

Something I was considering of late was what if Marie (b.1537) had been born male. Might Elizabeth I be considered as a more serious match for that Valois prince? OTL she was considered for three AFAIK - Charles, duc d'Angouleme - Henri II's younger brother; Henri III and Hercule, duc d'Alencon.

So until Mary, queen of Scots is born, or if she would be unavailable, would Elizabeth make for a good compromise candidate? Even if only one with which to threaten Scotland to marry Mary to the dauphin? i.e. if you don't let us marry your wee queen, we'll marry the king of England's daughter/sister.
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

The problem with Elizabeth and Louis would be the 'when'? Henry VIII wasn't keen to marry either of his daughters off, since that would open an awkward situation regarding their bastardization/legitimacy. That said, Liz might be betrothed to Louis during Edward VI's reign, perhaps a deal where he is to marry Mary and Liz is to marry Louis, or he is to marry Elisabeth de Valois. But it will definitely not be happening in Bloody Mary's philo-Habsburg reign. Savoy, yes; French dauphin I think not. So if Liz then marries at 25 (why? she didn't OTL, but TTL the French king (TTL Louis XIII/Francois II/Charles IX) and his brothers are born close enough together that Mary Steuart marries them in succession if things go sideways) she's more likely to marry her widower brother-in-law or a Habsburg candidate (pity about Ferdinand II marrying Fraulein Welser, cause that would've made for an interesting match). Plus it would be awkward to have the dauphin still unmarried when he comes to the throne at 21 (assuming Henri II dies on time), and then to marry an older woman (practically a spinster by the standards of the day)
 

Kellan Sullivan

I've been tinkering a bit more with this scenario - earlier motherhood for Catherine - and wondering what the effects on France might be if all of Henri II's sons who leave issue here - which in this scenario, thanks to @Kynan, are all of them (so it makes for fun and games) - but the boys die young and there's only girls left. Now obviously in a scenario where Mary, queen of Scots is married to the king of France, this is fine for Scotland. But IIRC, when Henri III died it was the first time that the term Loi Salique had been used since the direct Capetians went extinct 200 years before. And basically the candidates came down to a foreign Catholic and a Protestant Frenchman (to put it mildly).

So, if Henri II had had nothing but granddaughters, would the French laws be changed? Or would France grumble and just accept said Protestant like OTL?
 
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