AHC: Make Belgium a naval power

Though not necessarily a big one.

The Belgian Navy is, always has been, pretty small and at some points in the country's history totally non-existent. While the Belgian army and air force during the Cold War were quite respectable in terms of quantity and quality of equipment the navy never had more than a decent sized squadron of mine warfare vessels and a handful of frigates. The current Belgian armada consists of two second hand Dutch frigates, a half dozen mine hunters and nine assorted patrol, support and auxiliary vessels.

Of course this makes a certain amount of sense. Defence budgets can only stretch so far and Belgium is surrounded by three of Europe's premier sea powers. Combine this with a lack of sea-mindedness in the country and you can see why Belgium is not known as a scourge of the seven seas.

So your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to rectify this state of affairs and make the Marine Royale, if not a force to rival the USN, at least on a par with the likes of Denmark or Portugal.

Points will be given for style and plausibility with bonus points for hitting any of the following.

* A 2015 Belgian Navy that can field at least four destroyers or large frigates equivalent in capabilities to those of the other NATO navies. (Double points if it can manage both)

* A force of at least six modern corvettes to back the above up. (You can mix and match this with the frigates, bringing the number of larger ships down in exchange for increasing the number of smaller ships)

* A squadron of at least four submarines.

* A fleet air arm operating helicopters from the ships, fixed wing anti-submarine planes from land and at least one squadron of jet fighters in the anti-shipping role. (You do not have to provide all of these if you think it's too much for the country to afford)

* A Belgian marine corps. (This can be similar to the British or Dutch marines rather than the USMC)

* An amphibious warfare vessel for the above.

* An underway replenishment vessel to support this fleet.

* A compliment of mine warfare and patrol ships to bulk out the fleet.

Extra points for having as many of the ships designed and built in Belgium as possible, (this of course does not mean the Belgians have to build every single weapon system themselves, all the stuff other NATO countries buy off the shelf from abroad the Belgians can buy), and double extra points for gutting the army and the air force to build this navy.

I think that's about it so away you go.
 
Belgium doesn't need a big navy. It has only a small coast line. No overseas areas to protect. It is surrounded by allies, all with a pretty decent navy (ok, maybe not the Netherlands) . Far away from enemies and the potential enemies it has would reach Belgium over land. Why invest heavily in a navy?

Basicly you need Belgium somehow to keep part of the Congo or some other overseas territories and make the area around Belgium be more hostile (so no Nato or EU). Increasing the coastal area of Belgium might help too.
 
i got laughing fit after reading first post: Belgium with bigger navy ?

They have barely a budget to buildup there current Fleet and keep it operational.
Even now the Belgium politician are discussing about shutting down the Fleet completely for National Budget reason.

in 1831 the first navy establish and in 1862 abolished for budgetary reasons...

in 1917 The second Belgium Navy personnel worked on French navy minesweepers
1918 they got 11 torpedo boats and 26 minesweepers from german imperial Navy.
by the way in 1927 Belgium abolished its second navy for budgetary reasons...

1939 the Belgium government resurrected its third navy how existed for year until the Nazi came
during the WW2 the Belgium navy personnel escape serve on British combat ships
those were donate to Belgium Navy after WW2

1946 the Fourth Belgium Navy was founded with humble tasks
-control of ship on way to Belgium harbors
-minesweeping (germans drop zillion mines in WW 1&2 in Belgium coast)
-coast patrol
-control of fishery in Belgium sea
-Sea rescue
 
In late 1890`s and early 1900`s Belgium begins to take an interest in the Congo (Like make it a real part of the kingdom ) and develops it by giving it railroads and expands the port city of Matadi to host a small naval squadron .
After WWI they get some German colonies in the east and begin establishing mining and farming operations in the region to feed Belgium`s growing population .As well in the period many Belgians show an interest in moving to the region .The navy is built up after the war with a few ex-German cruisers and torpedo boats given to them as reparations .They also get the predreadnoughts of the Deutschland class and in the early 1920`s build two small Battleships for the Congo fleet incase the any power might try to take it .
In the late thirties with Germany once again building a navy the Belgians alongside the Dutch enter into an arms race that sees them each begin to build a trio of pocket Battleships along the lines of the German Deutschland class .The Dutch also begin construction of a pair of large Battleships for the east Indies ,which forces the Belgians to respond with a pair of their own .These ships are based on the French Dunkerque class BC and are not completed by the German invasion .
Post war the two ships are finished and alongside a loaned Essex class American carrier form the core of a large well rounded Belgian navy .Relations with the Dutch remain icy and the two nations each attempt to gain numerical superiority over the other (The Dutch keep all or part of the Indies so they have money coming from oil helping their economy ) .
By 2015 the Belgians announce that the two fleets (European and African ) are each to have a modern force of three Destroyers ,one Cruiser .Six Minelayer/hunters and six Submarines each .A Fleet Air Arm will also be made which will operate as a joint venture of the air force and navy and will have both large aircraft for coastal patrol .Fighters and helicopters will also be present .A few month later the Belgian navy announces it will purchase a modern medium carrier built in France which will serve to greatly increase the navies power .The carrier is slated for completion sometime in 2022 and was simply to massive for a Belgian builder to cope with .
There you have it .A larger Belgian interest in the Congo and continued Dutch tensions result in a much larger Belgian naval force that makes them one of the most potent navies in Europe .As well as one of the richest nations on earth if they exploited the resources the Congo has to offer .
 
Belgium doesn't need a big navy. It has only a small coast line. No overseas areas to protect.
Same could have been said about Germany in 1897, where their oceanic coast is tiny, but they still pursued a blue water navy. Granted Germany's Baltic coast was long, requiring perhaps a navy equal to Sweden's.

German_Empire_1000.jpg
 
Code:
Could Matadi be made into a naval base? Is there coal to fuel ships in the Congo?
Code:

The Congo is rich in mineral wealth .It has Uranium ,petroleum and Cobalt Copper and Gold can all be found their .As well as Diamonds .The reason the existence of these resources are so ill known is that the country was ill used by Belgium and it`s home rule has been plagued by corruption and abuse that puts other African dictatorships to shame .
And these resources would make Matadi a very important port if they were or are exploited .But again the whole civil unrest and uniterested colonial rule meant that the nation never realized its potential .
 
Same could have been said about Germany in 1897, where their oceanic coast is tiny, but they still pursued a blue water navy. Granted Germany's Baltic coast was long, requiring perhaps a navy equal to Sweden's.

snip

That comparison is... less than apt, to say the least.

OP: Would a BeNeLux union of some sort count?
 
You need a reason to have a navy,
Post WWII any navy needs will be covered by USN/RN/Nato so you need a navy pre WWII.

War v GB = RN wins (don't need a navy)
War v Fr/Ge/Ne will be decided on land (don't need a navy)

To need a navy you need a colonial war that requires a navy say over and to hold onto an island colony ?
 
Only an idiot would turn Belgium into a naval power. Portugal was protected from outside invaders due to the fact that Spain was its only neighbor. Outside of Spain, you need a navy to invade Portugal. Denmark, possessing several islands and being the entrance to the Baltic, similarly required a strong navy to protect its lands. Belgium, on the other hand, tends to get the Poland treatment from Germany and certainly would have from the Red Army had it ever decided to head west. And they had a friend in England that had a bit of an incentive to keep Belgium independent and neutral.
 
Actually, give France possession of the German lands east of Belgium and the Netherlands. France and Belgium are allies, enemies of the UK and Germany never unifies. Belgium would be a naval power then.
 
Kind of like Count Crisco suggested: make the Belgians feel they need a navy to protect the Congo. Alternatively, have the Belgians somehow obtain some island colonies in the 19th century which require a navy for protection. God knows it's not impossible given that Leopold II was looking for colonies all over the place.
 

LordKalvert

Banned
Belgium is a "victor" in WWI, so give them a cut of the HSF. Then inertia sets in and the Belgians spend money on upkeep, then decide to replace the ships as they wear out
 
Belgium is a "victor" in WWI, so give them a cut of the HSF. Then inertia sets in and the Belgians spend money on upkeep, then decide to replace the ships as they wear out

1919 they got 37 Vessel from German Imperial Navy, territory of Neutral Morsnet, Prussian area Eupen-Malmedy and 10 billion gold mark reparations payment
and even with that in 1927 the incompetent Belgian politicians abolish there second Navy...
 
If Belgium will have a more sizable navy or not is desided in the early 19th century. Belgium did had the industrila base to construct navy ships. It hade a large iron and steel industry, factories capable of making artiltery and shipyards able to build large vessels.
Half way the 19th centurythere was indeed a debate if Belgium needed a navy or not, this was before there was any sight of a colony or trade out post in the America´s, Asia or Africa.
After a lengthy debate the Belgians decide not to invest in a navy at all. Later some small coatal defence navy branch was established.
So the Belgians would make a desision in the 19th century, possible guided by some lobby of the heavy industry and ship building industry. And with a man or a group of men with a kind of Tirpitz vision´´, or with a kind of idea oto counter a Dutch threat in the case the Dutch would block the harbor of Antwerp or any other power like France.
 
What if Belgium signed a mutual defense pact with France in about 1890-1910 that stated that France would offer to come to their aid should they be attacked and vice versa .The only stipulation ?That Belgium have a military big enough to lend credible aid to the French .
Belgium then with help from French engineers begins to build a few battleships to go along with their Cruiser/Destroyer force and by the time wwI breaks out the nations fleet is made up of .
2 Dreadnought Battleships with two more of the same class building .
5 Predreadnoughts forming two squadrons for coast defence and colonial guard .
5 Armored Cruisers of around ten thousand tons .
6 Protected Cruisers of around six thousand tons .
24 Torpedo boats with 16 on home defence duties ,and eight in the Congo .
2 Submarines for shore defence .
Along with a few tender vessels for the TB`s and one or two resupply ships .
During WWI Belgium is quickly overran by German and Dutch troops (One of the nations the pact was agianst in Belgiums case was the Netherlands as tensions are higher in this TL than ours ) taking it in four months .Belgiums government then moves to Paris while the navy patrols in the Channel and North sea .It is here that the two Belgian Dreadnoughts meet up with the three Dreads of the Dutch fleet along with the German Battlecruiser Moltke .The two ships of the Belgian fleet are all sunk but they manage to take Moltke down with them .The British fleet attempts to come to the Belgian fleets aid ,but when they get there the ships are sunk and since Britain is not at war with the Netherlands (As neither side wants to expend the men and material to fight the other they either support France or Germany but the Dutch only fight in Belgium before offering the French a simple Dutch surrender that puts the border a few miles south for the Dutch and gives them the Port of Antwerp .
The war ends and Belgium is once again free .After a short war Antwerp is returned to the Belgians and they begin to rebuild their navy in the early twenties .This fleet is largely kept in port due to the depression but as Hitler rearms Germany Belgium begins a modest naval up from 1936 onward that sees numerous ships ,aircraft and tanks reach the military by 1939 .The navy includes .
1 Pocket Battleship with another two building .
4 Dreadnoughts built in the early twenties and not much modified for the 40`s
3 Heavy Cruisers with two more building .
5 Light Cruisers with four more building .
17 Destroyers with 11 more building .
8 Submarines .
This fleet falls into the advancing NAZI`s hands and is completely gone by the end of the war due to British air attacks on Antwerp and loss at sea .
Post-war the Belgians rebuild the fleet slowly as the loss of the Congo and better relations with the Dutch and Germans sees most of the need for a large naval force gone it is not very large compared to it`s prewar size .This force is kept modern and well kept ,with much of the tech going into them coming either from the French or local .
In 2015 the fleet is made up of the following .
8 Destroyers .
7 Frigates with one building .
8 Submarines .
12 Corvettes .
3 Shore based air squadrons .
Along with two support ships and an amphibious landing ship deployed with NATO forces .
There I think my second scenario is more realistic and though it might be a stretch for Belgiums treasury to afford I think that with French and later NATO support it is doable .
 
even with that in 1927 the incompetent Belgian politicians abolish there second Navy...
Why is it incompetent ? What would the navy have done to help Belgium ?

(Apart from running to join GB in 1940 ?)

With a limited pot of money would you with hindsight really advise Belgium in the 20s to spend on the navy ? Would competing the northern end of the Maginot Line not be a little more important ? (if diplomacy dictates you can always build 2 sets one facing Germany and one France, Just make sure the French facing side can fight both ways as a second line)
 
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