The Philippines under Tsarist Russia

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La Rouge Beret

La Rouge Beret

This question is motivated by this wonderful flag that I found for the Petrines or the Russian Philippines.

russia%2Bphil.png


Therefore, with a POD between 1800 - 1900 how could the Philippines come under Tsarist control and how would this change the Philippines?
 
Remitonov

Remitonov

I'm not sure how Russia could be motivated to take colonies this far out without a navy capable of matching Britain, or even fight the Spanish for any reason. The only real faint chance would be the Congress of Vienna, in the event the Spanish East Indies openly supported Bonapartist Spain, but that's huuuuuge if, and Britain would block any challenge to its interest with earnest.
 
Timaeus

Timaeus

Remitonov said:
I'm not sure how Russia could be motivated to take colonies this far out without a navy capable of matching Britain, or even fight the Spanish for any reason. The only real faint chance would be the Congress of Vienna, in the event the Spanish East Indies openly supported Bonapartist Spain, but that's huuuuuge if, and Britain would block any challenge to its interest with earnest.
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The 19th century was a chaotic mess, and the Latin American independence wars are a perfect opportunity for one group or another to take bits and pieces from the Spanish Empire.
 

Namayan

Timaeus said:
The 19th century was a chaotic mess, and the Latin American independence wars are a perfect opportunity for one group or another to take bits and pieces from the Spanish Empire.
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This is true except it would be the British taking the Philippines on such a scenario. The British still don't have Hong Kong. The British won't just hand over such a prize especially if Russia don't have enough ships in the pacific

I don't believe the Russians even control Vladivostok at this time. Any later pod after napoleonic war mean Russia would be a British competitor or British threat.

Also, the flag looks like 1890s pod. Stars and triangle is an 1890s concept.
 
Timaeus

Timaeus

Namayan said:
This is true except it would be the British taking the Philippines on such a scenario. The British still don't have Hong Kong. The British won't just hand over such a prize especially if Russia don't have enough ships in the pacific

I don't believe the Russians even control Vladivostok at this time. Any later pod after napoleonic war mean Russia would be a British competitor or British threat.

Also, the flag looks like 1890s pod. Stars and triangle is an 1890s concept.
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True enough.

I wonder what the British would feel about having a colony with so many Catholics.

And yes, stars and triangle is the flag of the 1890s revolution. Few people remember that. It's become iconic for the Philippines, but so many of our national symbols only became so in the 1890s.
 
Remitonov

Remitonov

Timaeus said:
True enough.

I wonder what the British would feel about having a colony with so many Catholics.

And yes, stars and triangle is the flag of the 1890s revolution. Few people remember that. It's become iconic for the Philippines, but so many of our national symbols only became so in the 1890s.
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Considering their biggest crown jewels are inhabited almost entirely of Hindus, Muslims and other non-Christians, I don't think they'll care all that much, or rather, just can't do much but tolerate them. Even their more loyal dominions (i.e. Canada, Australia) have a plurality of Catholics as a result of colonists from Catholic countries like Ireland and France.
 
Al-numbers

Al-numbers

Hmm... Tsarist Russia was active in Southeast Asia during the 1890s as they did ask the king of Siam for a coaling station in Ujong Salang (modern day Phuket). He said no.

Still, the most I can see is the empire nabbing a port or two if you let the butterflies fly. The region was already dominated by the Brits, French and Dutch and I can't see anything more than a port takeover be seen as favorable to the three Powers.
 

LordKalvert

Banned
Spain joins the Triple Intervention against Japan on the condition that Russia agrees to protect the Philippines

When the Spanish-American War is about to break out, Spain hands over the Philippines to Russia with the understanding that after the war, Spain can have them back. The Americans, happy to avoid a war with the Russians, agrees to this little scheme

After the Americans destroy the Spanish, the Spanish decide that they don't really want the Philippines back and sell out to the Russians. The British are furious but then the Fashoda crises is about to erupt and decide not to intervene so as to separate the Russians and the French

Rough outline- could give it more detail if you need it

P.S. That Flag is so cool it deserves to fly somewhere
 
La Rouge Beret

La Rouge Beret

sketchdoodle said:
Hmm... Tsarist Russia was active in Southeast Asia during the 1890s as they did ask the king of Siam for a coaling station in Ujong Salang (modern day Phuket). He said no.

Still, the most I can see is the empire nabbing a port or two if you let the butterflies fly. The region was already dominated by the Brits, French and Dutch and I can't see anything more than a port takeover be seen as favorable to the three Powers.
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Even a Russian presence in the Philippines is still an interesting outcome and adds another level of complexity to the strategic balance of the region.

LordKalvert said:
Spain joins the Triple Intervention against Japan on the condition that Russia agrees to protect the Philippines

When the Spanish-American War is about to break out, Spain hands over the Philippines to Russia with the understanding that after the war, Spain can have them back. The Americans, happy to avoid a war with the Russians, agrees to this little scheme

After the Americans destroy the Spanish, the Spanish decide that they don't really want the Philippines back and sell out to the Russians. The British are furious but then the Fashoda crises is about to erupt and decide not to intervene so as to separate the Russians and the French

Rough outline- could give it more detail if you need it

P.S. That Flag is so cool it deserves to fly somewhere
Click to expand...

Agreed about the flag it was on its own enough to inspire me to write a short story, about either a Russian presence in the Philippines or the Russian Philippines. In fact what I was going to base it upon would be a Russian version of SMS Seeadler during TTL's Great War.

So would be interested to hear your further thoughts on the matter.
 

ghappy1000

Later consequences

If events aren't butterflied too much, perhaps the Spanish relief squadron for the Philippines goes to North America and does some minor operations. Then, it would be taken by Japan in 1905 after Tsushima [the Russians may have more ships and fewer rotations, but dispersed over a larger area and the best the Russian Navy might do is to purchase more ships and conduct diversionary operations].
Now, what would the impacts of a Russian controlled Philippines do for the Russian-Japanese War? Would the Russian colony enable the Russian Navy to threaten Japanese controlled islands, Taiwan and Japanese ships besides diverting a portion of the Japanese Navy? If the Philippines were Russian in 1917 and minimal butterflies occur, could an independent and/or communist Philippines occur if not taken by the Japanese or Entente?
[I assume the Russian base at the Philippines butterflies Tsushima as the Russian Navy has a base to threaten Taiwan and divert Japanese ships from Port Arthur and home. How [logically] bigger would the Japanese and Russian Pacific Navies be?]
 
Remitonov

Remitonov

Don't think Spain has any decent interest in China or containing Japan, IIRC. Still, the Spanish-American War and Philippine-American War are good places to start.

Perhaps Russia seized the islands after the Americans exhaust themselves fighting the Filipino resistance, or have the Russians support the Filipinos. Another idea is to have the Spain lease the islands to Russia as the war started to keep the Philippines from being overrun by the Americans, and perhaps hoping for some help to pin down the rebels.

Come to think of it, a Russian East Indies that far out might prove a vital spot for Russian emigre to flee to, if WWI still happens as per OTL. I'd imagined it'll turn into a Taiwan in itself, only with a more realistic chance of full independence.
 
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MorningDew

Even if the Russians have Vladivostok, keeping and holding the Philippines is going to be a nightmare, and the British are likely going to nab it as soon as possible.

Without Vladivostok, its completely and totally impossible due to all of Russia's other ports except petropavlosk being boxed in by Europe and it BEING FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE to get overland to petropavlosk. The city is unreachable by road TO THIS DAY.
 
Roland Traveler

Roland Traveler

MorningDew said:
Even if the Russians have Vladivostok, keeping and holding the Philippines is going to be a nightmare, and the British are likely going to nab it as soon as possible.

Without Vladivostok, its completely and totally impossible due to all of Russia's other ports except petropavlosk being boxed in by Europe and it BEING FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE to get overland to petropavlosk. The city is unreachable by road TO THIS DAY.
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After reading up on this city, my only reaction to its entire history is "What the fuck?" Why would building this city ever be considered a good idea? And why would you ever invade it?
On topic, maybe during the First Age of Colonialism Russia decides it might as well try its hand in SE Asia if it's already in Alaska. I don't see it lasting long, but the Russians might take parts of Luzon for a while with a claim on the rest of the archipelago.
 

LordKalvert

Banned
ghappy1000 said:
If events aren't butterflied too much, perhaps the Spanish relief squadron for the Philippines goes to North America and does some minor operations. Then, it would be taken by Japan in 1905 after Tsushima [the Russians may have more ships and fewer rotations, but dispersed over a larger area and the best the Russian Navy might do is to purchase more ships and conduct diversionary operations].
Now, what would the impacts of a Russian controlled Philippines do for the Russian-Japanese War? Would the Russian colony enable the Russian Navy to threaten Japanese controlled islands, Taiwan and Japanese ships besides diverting a portion of the Japanese Navy? If the Philippines were Russian in 1917 and minimal butterflies occur, could an independent and/or communist Philippines occur if not taken by the Japanese or Entente?
[I assume the Russian base at the Philippines butterflies Tsushima as the Russian Navy has a base to threaten Taiwan and divert Japanese ships from Port Arthur and home. How [logically] bigger would the Japanese and Russian Pacific Navies be?]
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A Russian base at Manila would almost certainly butterfly the Battle of Tsushima. The Port Arthur squadron would have managed to escape in August by fleeing to the open sea rather than be caught by the Japanese trying to get to Vladivostok. The two fleets could then unite and defeat Japan
 

Emperor Constantine

While interesting, chances are this is near-ASB. Russia's interest was in central Asia, Northern China and Korea. I can't see the Russians taking an interest in South Asia at any time, except for perhaps a warm water port and even then why go so far from the homeland? Plus a Russian Philippines is basically the prologue to an imperial Anglo-Russian war. Britain would feel India is threatened and "surrounded" not unlike France and the Habsburgs in the 16th and 17th centuries. So realistically this is impossible to pull off without causing a full-scale war.
 

ghappy1000

Possible Scenario for this to occur [in the late 19th century]

In 1896, the Spanish were facing rebellions in the Philippines and Cuba, supported by other countries [especially America]. In the first months of 1897, after the 1st Filipino Revolution disintegrated because of disunity and the execution of revolutionary leader Andres Bonifacio, the Spanish decided to sell to the Russian Empire [at least] the totally Spanish-controlled portions of their Philippines colony.

Upon receiving news of the planned transfer of the colony to Russia, several Spanish ministers in the government were surprised; some even going insane and shocked at the suggestion of transferring one of their island colonies to Russia. The counter response was a fear of losing Spanish colonies to local rebels and racism [although the Spanish demonstrated oppression over the more than three centuries of colonialism in these islands]. After a long and heated debate, it was finally suggested that the colony would be sold, but the appropriate imperialist power to claim these islands was to be selected.

It was Russia that would receive the Philippines as the country wasn't responsible for supporting Filipino nationalists and the only one of the [Christian] Great powers not suspected of this and having Southeast Asian colonies. In the capital city of Petrograd, Tsar Nicholas II, Ivan Durnovo and other ministers also waited for the Spanish meetings with them regarding the transfer of the Philippines to their country. Although transferring the colony to their rule was uneasy because of the logistical distances from home through Siberia and Europe and the lack of an actual need, the Russians eventually agreed to take the colony and prevent any foreign incursions into Asia. Japan and Russia were building tensions over Manchuria while America was eyeing on Europe. The colonies would be safe from aggression if transferred theoretically. The Russians shared Spanish concerns over natives simultaneously and the expected Japanese and American support for them. If possible, the Spanish could join any war against the Ottomans, Triple Alliance and expected allies with France and other Entente members supporting as hoped, especially with an alliance signed afterwards.
 
La Rouge Beret

La Rouge Beret

ghappy1000 said:
In 1896, the Spanish were facing rebellions in the Philippines and Cuba, supported by other countries [especially America]. In the first months of 1897, after the 1st Filipino Revolution disintegrated because of disunity and the execution of revolutionary leader Andres Bonifacio, the Spanish decided to sell to the Russian Empire [at least] the totally Spanish-controlled portions of their Philippines colony.

Upon receiving news of the planned transfer of the colony to Russia, several Spanish ministers in the government were surprised; some even going insane and shocked at the suggestion of transferring one of their island colonies to Russia. The counter response was a fear of losing Spanish colonies to local rebels and racism [although the Spanish demonstrated oppression over the more than three centuries of colonialism in these islands]. After a long and heated debate, it was finally suggested that the colony would be sold, but the appropriate imperialist power to claim these islands was to be selected.

It was Russia that would receive the Philippines as the country wasn't responsible for supporting Filipino nationalists and the only one of the [Christian] Great powers not suspected of this and having Southeast Asian colonies. In the capital city of Petrograd, Tsar Nicholas II, Ivan Durnovo and other ministers also waited for the Spanish meetings with them regarding the transfer of the Philippines to their country. Although transferring the colony to their rule was uneasy because of the logistical distances from home through Siberia and Europe and the lack of an actual need, the Russians eventually agreed to take the colony and prevent any foreign incursions into Asia. Japan and Russia were building tensions over Manchuria while America was eyeing on Europe. The colonies would be safe from aggression if transferred theoretically. The Russians shared Spanish concerns over natives simultaneously and the expected Japanese and American support for them. If possible, the Spanish could join any war against the Ottomans, Triple Alliance and expected allies with France and other Entente members supporting as hoped, especially with an alliance signed afterwards.
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Intriguing option... I had also thought of Russia perhaps guaranteeing the independence of the Philippines in exchange for a 100 year lease of a naval base. Perhaps a two state solution similar to Ireland and Northern Ireland, whereby <insert> random Philippine island is brought under Russian control.
 

Namayan

ghappy1000 said:
In 1896, the Spanish were facing rebellions in the Philippines and Cuba, supported by other countries [especially America]. In the first months of 1897, after the 1st Filipino Revolution disintegrated because of disunity and the execution of revolutionary leader Andres Bonifacio, the Spanish decided to sell to the Russian Empire [at least] the totally Spanish-controlled portions of their Philippines colony.

Upon receiving news of the planned transfer of the colony to Russia, several Spanish ministers in the government were surprised; some even going insane and shocked at the suggestion of transferring one of their island colonies to Russia. The counter response was a fear of losing Spanish colonies to local rebels and racism [although the Spanish demonstrated oppression over the more than three centuries of colonialism in these islands]. After a long and heated debate, it was finally suggested that the colony would be sold, but the appropriate imperialist power to claim these islands was to be selected.

It was Russia that would receive the Philippines as the country wasn't responsible for supporting Filipino nationalists and the only one of the [Christian] Great powers not suspected of this and having Southeast Asian colonies. In the capital city of Petrograd, Tsar Nicholas II, Ivan Durnovo and other ministers also waited for the Spanish meetings with them regarding the transfer of the Philippines to their country. Although transferring the colony to their rule was uneasy because of the logistical distances from home through Siberia and Europe and the lack of an actual need, the Russians eventually agreed to take the colony and prevent any foreign incursions into Asia. Japan and Russia were building tensions over Manchuria while America was eyeing on Europe. The colonies would be safe from aggression if transferred theoretically. The Russians shared Spanish concerns over natives simultaneously and the expected Japanese and American support for them. If possible, the Spanish could join any war against the Ottomans, Triple Alliance and expected allies with France and other Entente members supporting as hoped, especially with an alliance signed afterwards.
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Spain never actually defeated totally the rebels in 1897 OTL. Spain started winning battles against Aguinaldo in March with arrival General de Lacambre and continued until June to the point that forced Aguinaldo to Batangas. Aguinaldo slipped past Spanish forces including Spanish held Manila and went North to Bulacan. Spain had to resort to a peace treaty or a more blunt interpretation payoff/bribe for peace in exchange for all the rebels to surrender their weapons and shipped to Hong Kong.

And that peace treaty in OTL happened in December of 1897.

That means any sale of the Philippines earlier than Dec 1897 would butterfly the expulsion of the rebels that are still armed. If the sale still pushes thru, would mean Russia would be buying a colony ready to explode again.

By 1898, a lot of those Filipinos educated in Europe would have returned unless somehow you create a valid reason for them to stay in Europe, and like Luna waste the military education gave by General Leman.

Once you pass the rebel problem stage, you still got the British problem of allowing the Russians to colonized the Philippines.

The scenario I could think of is Russians helping the rebels like in Ethiopia in OTL. It would be within Russia's character to help. Russians gets friendly port offers protectorate. You get rid of the rebel problem. The British wont feel threatened if it is not a colony.
 
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