November 1861 McClellan dies

Who is appointed to take his place? Who should take his place?
Does it make a Union victory easier, impossible, or something in between?

Does it much matter what his cause of death is? Even guys his age in seemingly perfect health could die a natural death.
 
Who is appointed to take his place? Who should take his place?
Does it make a Union victory easier, impossible, or something in between?

Does it much matter what his cause of death is? Even guys his age in seemingly perfect health could die a natural death.

I should like to think that either George Henry Thomas or George Meade would be appint, both having long history of careers in the United States Army as first a soldier and the an officer and both being civil engineer.

But sadly like many of the officers of the Union army, many were promoted, not for their history but because of the influence their family or friends had.

The death of McClellan would be a massive blow to moral but once a new Major General is picked, it should be fine, unless they keep changing them every ten seconds as I think this is always a bad move and one of the reasons Britain lost the ARW.

Also who runs for the democrats in the 1864 President election ;)
 
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In November of 1861 virtually no one in high command has any real experience, one way or the other. They also have far fewer war-time political connections to call upon (this does not count the peace-time political connections many people used to get appointed Generals in the first place).

Therefore, whosoever replaces McClellan - as AotP commander, not as anything higher as McClellan was for a while - will be based mostly on seniority.

A possibility is to promote one of the current senior commanders from the AotP. The highest is Irwin McDowell, but he had his chance at Bull Run, so a promotion back to army command is unlikely. More probable is "Bull" Sumner, with runners-up Samuel Heintzleman [sic?] and Erasmus Keyes. I forget if McClellan had organized the AotP into corps yet, in which case these three would be outright the senior-most generals. If he had not, then bearing in mind that Heintzleman & Keyes were truly political appointees, McClellan himself had preferred Fitz John Porter and William Franklin. Depending on the exact nature of McClellan's death, his preferences may or may not carry any weight. Regardless, within the AotP itself, these 5 (with the first 3 more likely) are the viable possibilities.

None of these 5 seem like inspired choices, with Sumner, Porter, and Franklin slightly preferable. Regardless, they are competent enough to not suffer any huge disaster, and cautious enough not to gain any major victory. Admitting the butterfly net will be humongous from this early a PoD, I would not predict a drastically shorter or longer war.

Another option is to bring in an outsider to take command. Seeing as the AotP is the largest, and seen as the most important, army the Union has, whoever comes in likely must be of an army- or department-commanding rank already. Thus, for instance, while I would love to see Thomas, as mentioned by Jonathan, there is no way that will happen. He was a local divisional commander under department head Don Carlos Buell, in turn serving under regional commander Henry Halleck.

As such, Halleck himself is a reasonable first choice, bringing him in from out west. If he does not come, then either Buell (commanding in eastern Kentucky) or Grant (commanding in western Kentucky) are possibilities.

As for other departments....one option is William Rosecrans, commanding in West Virginia. As he had already served under McClellan in the earlier campaigning there, and performed very well, he is a very deserving black-horse candidate.

Another option is John Fremont, commanding in Missouri. As a darling of the Radical Republicans, his appointment would be very polarizing in terms of whether or not it could happen at this early stage in the war.

Coming in last on the list of possibilities are choices such as Ambrose Burnside, depending on how high a command he officially had already and how far preparations for the Roanoke Expedition are coming along. In a similar situation is Benjamin Butler, depending on preparations for New Orleans.

Of these outsiders, the top tier obviously consists of Grant, with Rosecrans a close (IMO) second. Probably none of the others would be outright disasters - regardless, I could see this shortening the war substantially, depending on how the butterflies happen.

A point to consider for these outsiders, however, is who takes their place. If Grant, for instance, comes east, then someone else is in charge of the Forts Henry-Donelson expedition, and this person will likely be less successful than Grant. Even if they take the forts, they will not likely capture the Confederate defenders, which can cause huge changes later down the line, starting with the extra 10,000+ troops leading to a decisive Confederate victory at Alt.-Shiloh.

-----

Also, to close down the speculation before it starts, the following people will *definitely not* take McClellan's place (no matter how much we may like some of them), as they are far too junior at this point in time:

George Thomas, George Meade, William Tecumseh Sherman, Joseph Hooker, John Reynolds, Darius Couch, Winfield Scott Hancock, Dan Sickles, Gouvernor Warren, John Sedgewick, Phillip Kearny, William "Baldy" Smith, Oliver Otis Howard, Slocum, Ord, Sheridan, McPherson, Wright........

[While I think that Franz Sigel, John Pope, and Nathaniel Banks also belong on the above list, I could be persuaded to move them to the "Outside shot" category.]
 

TFSmith121

Banned
WHEN in November is pretty key;

Who is appointed to take his place? Who should take his place?
Does it make a Union victory easier, impossible, or something in between?

Does it much matter what his cause of death is? Even guys his age in seemingly perfect health could die a natural death.

Scott may still be general-in-chief; he requested retirement on Oct. 31 (Happy Halloween) but McClellan did not officially take the post until Nov. 1. He'd been in command of what became the Army of the Potomac since a week after Bull Run, essentially, so there's really two questions:

1) Who replaces Scott as G-in-C? (presuming Scott, in the aftermath of GBM's death, does not ask to stay on and/or Lincoln agrees);
2) who replaces McClellan as CG of the Army of the Potomac?

All else being equal, the best choice for general-in-chief is Joseph King Fenno Mansfield; the obvious choice for the AotP, if McDowell is out of the running, is Edwin Vose Sumner.

Neither is young; Mansfield was born in December, 1803, and Sumner in January, 1797.

Both, however, are professionals, with more real world experience than almost any other officer in blue in 1861 (Scott and John Wool being the honorable exceptions); and both are well-suited for the respective roles.

With the right men as their respective chiefs of staff (AA Humphreys and CP Stone, for example) both would have been formidable.

Best,
 
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In November of 1861 virtually no one in high command has any real experience, one way or the other. They also have far fewer war-time political connections to call upon (this does not count the peace-time political connections many people used to get appointed Generals in the first place).

Therefore, whosoever replaces McClellan - as AotP commander, not as anything higher as McClellan was for a while - will be based mostly on seniority.

A possibility is to promote one of the current senior commanders from the AotP. The highest is Irwin McDowell, but he had his chance at Bull Run, so a promotion back to army command is unlikely. More probable is "Bull" Sumner, with runners-up Samuel Heintzleman [sic?] and Erasmus Keyes. I forget if McClellan had organized the AotP into corps yet, in which case these three would be outright the senior-most generals. If he had not, then bearing in mind that Heintzleman & Keyes were truly political appointees, McClellan himself had preferred Fitz John Porter and William Franklin. Depending on the exact nature of McClellan's death, his preferences may or may not carry any weight. Regardless, within the AotP itself, these 5 (with the first 3 more likely) are the viable possibilities.

None of these 5 seem like inspired choices, with Sumner, Porter, and Franklin slightly preferable. Regardless, they are competent enough to not suffer any huge disaster, and cautious enough not to gain any major victory. Admitting the butterfly net will be humongous from this early a PoD, I would not predict a drastically shorter or longer war.

Another option is to bring in an outsider to take command. Seeing as the AotP is the largest, and seen as the most important, army the Union has, whoever comes in likely must be of an army- or department-commanding rank already. Thus, for instance, while I would love to see Thomas, as mentioned by Jonathan, there is no way that will happen. He was a local divisional commander under department head Don Carlos Buell, in turn serving under regional commander Henry Halleck.

As such, Halleck himself is a reasonable first choice, bringing him in from out west. If he does not come, then either Buell (commanding in eastern Kentucky) or Grant (commanding in western Kentucky) are possibilities.

As for other departments....one option is William Rosecrans, commanding in West Virginia. As he had already served under McClellan in the earlier campaigning there, and performed very well, he is a very deserving black-horse candidate.

Another option is John Fremont, commanding in Missouri. As a darling of the Radical Republicans, his appointment would be very polarizing in terms of whether or not it could happen at this early stage in the war.

Coming in last on the list of possibilities are choices such as Ambrose Burnside, depending on how high a command he officially had already and how far preparations for the Roanoke Expedition are coming along. In a similar situation is Benjamin Butler, depending on preparations for New Orleans.

Of these outsiders, the top tier obviously consists of Grant, with Rosecrans a close (IMO) second. Probably none of the others would be outright disasters - regardless, I could see this shortening the war substantially, depending on how the butterflies happen.

A point to consider for these outsiders, however, is who takes their place. If Grant, for instance, comes east, then someone else is in charge of the Forts Henry-Donelson expedition, and this person will likely be less successful than Grant. Even if they take the forts, they will not likely capture the Confederate defenders, which can cause huge changes later down the line, starting with the extra 10,000+ troops leading to a decisive Confederate victory at Alt.-Shiloh.

-----

Also, to close down the speculation before it starts, the following people will *definitely not* take McClellan's place (no matter how much we may like some of them), as they are far too junior at this point in time:

George Thomas, George Meade, William Tecumseh Sherman, Joseph Hooker, John Reynolds, Darius Couch, Winfield Scott Hancock, Dan Sickles, Gouvernor Warren, John Sedgewick, Phillip Kearny, William "Baldy" Smith, Oliver Otis Howard, Slocum, Ord, Sheridan, McPherson, Wright........

[While I think that Franz Sigel, John Pope, and Nathaniel Banks also belong on the above list, I could be persuaded to move them to the "Outside shot" category.]

I didn't want to make this easy. Probably with the experience of Fort McHenry, Fort Donelson and Shiloh Grant would be the most qualified. But he does not have all that yet. If I had McClellan drop dead in Nov. 1862, or maybe even a month or two earliier, Grant's the man, but that's too easy
McClellan is f-----g unbelievable, just good enough with his organisational skills to make one think he's needed. Make him absolutely unavailable before he does too much harm, settle that question.

I wish I could have been him during the 1860's and 70's with both our memories, and my will prevailing. I'd be elected president for sure in 1868, wouldn't want to displace Lincoln in 1864 even if I could, even if I had already won the war. And I might butterfly away his assasination.
 

Deleted member 9338

I can see Halleck being brought east as the Virginia theater was considered most important, but than what. Halleck isn't just as slow and more political than McClellen. Now as a chief of staff, that has possibilities.

Pope in the west has at least a victory behind him if he is offered higher commanding the west, in the east, it would come from one of the three grand division commanders, none of which were stellar.

I wonder if Lincoln would spend the political capital to give McDowell command of the Army of the Potomac.
 
Always thought that Little Mac dropping dead would make a good AH.

Even once used it as a basis for making the Worst AH ever written vaguely plausible.

Anyway why not Darius Couch as a replacement?

He was the AoP's effective second in command.
 
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Deleted member 9338

Always thought that Little Mac dropping dead would make a good AH.

Even once used it as a basis for making the Worst AH ever written vaguely plausible.

Anyway why not Darius Couch as a replacement?

He was the AoP's effective second in command.

He was also in charge of the Pennsylvania defense during the 1863 campaign waiting for the AofP to arrive. A good choice and little known figure from the period.
 
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