AHC: Have a Jewish Dynasty in charge of a major early modern power

This is pretty difficult one. I'm hoping with the amount of genius on this forum someone can figure out something that isn't too ASB.

So with a POD not before 1400 you must create a state ruled by a Jewish dynasty that is a major power before 1800 A few ground rules:


1. It should be within the European sphere of influence. It doesn't have to be in Europe but should be close enough that it would do diplomacy with actual governments and not trade companies. So I'm thinking limits would be around North Africa to the South, East coast of North America to the West, Persia to the East and the arctic to the north.

2. It doesn't need to be equal to France or England but it should be strong enough that it isn't in any other states sphere of influence. It should be able to hole its own in a war against one other power without outside assistance. It doesn't need to be the stongest militarily or navally but it needs to be able to survive.

3. While I expect it to be ruled by a Jewish dynasty (no republics) I'd rather not see mass conversions. Multiple religions are fine. It'd be nice to see Jews from other parts of Europe migrate there but its not completely necessary.

4. But I'd like to see the state being stable. It has to at least be stable enough to last until the twentieth century. And by last I don't hanging on by a thread. I don't want any sick man of Europe type deals here.


Now I know this is most likely ASB but considering I've given you a period of four hundred years to work with I could imagine a lot of butterflies during certain events. So maybe you'll think of something. There's the expulsion of the Jews from Spain. The discovery of the new world. Rise of revolutionary fervour. etc. etc. etc.

Even in Poland, where Jews were encouraged to settle in the 11th through 16th Centuries (and consequently the area/polity most suited for this POD, the local gentry were not going to allow non-Christians rule them. Even though they were the most Jew-tolerant polity in Europe during that time. Best bet would be the Poles giving an area for the Jews to set up their own state.

14th C. and later is much too late for there to be the chance of a snowball in hell for a Jewish Dynasty becoming established in Europe. Converted Jews, perhaps. Imagine if Disraeli had politically-minded offspring who became PMs in their own right. That would be an ethnically Jewish political dynasty of sorts.

What if Vlaimer I establishes Judaism as the religion of Russia instead of Orthadoxy?

Corned Beef Renegade said:

What if Vlaimer I establishes Judaism as the religion of Russia instead of Orthadoxy?

Click to expand...

The story of Vladimir being presented multiple religions to choose from was probably a myth. More likely he converted to Christianity as part of a quid pro quo for providing military assistance to Basil II .
Also the Kievan Primary Chronicle which documents the story of Vladimir's choices presents Judaism in a poor light.

Even in Poland, where Jews were encouraged to settle in the 11th through 16th Centuries (and consequently the area/polity most suited for this POD, the local gentry were not going to allow non-Christians rule them. Even though they were the most Jew-tolerant polity in Europe during that time. Best bet would be the Poles giving an area for the Jews to set up their own state.

Click to expand...

I think you're thinking a bit one dimensionally. Of course this is a pretty difficult challenge but different events in different parts of the world could reinforce each other. Such as maybe the Jews get their own state in Poland or somewhere Maybe when the Jews in various Christian lands get expelled they migrate to that state. Eventually a pogrom happens and they successfully fight off the peasant hordes and end up solidifying their power base and building up a fairly strong army because of the need to defend themselves. They then start accepting other religious minorities such as Cathars. Then some major war starts up. Maybe an alternate Calvin or Luther starts arguing against corruption in the church or the ottomans manage to get a major stronghold in Europe. Other refugees flee into Jewish lands. Maybe an army attacks the already well fortified Jewish state (due to a siege mentality) and after getting defeated they occupy some surrounding land and it gets annexed by default. At this point the number of Jews in this state are getting diluted. After the main conflict is over the emperor of the HRE or whatever attacks them over land and it ends in a stalemate with Jews in control of majority Christian areas. At this point the Jews are veterans after fighting in multiple wars as well as defending themselves from the near constant boarder incursions by neighbours. They still don't have much power projection and no allies but that's about to change. They send diplomats South to negotiate with the Sublime Porte. Real Politik means the alliance holds for about a century until the Jewish state manages to get a port on the Med. At that point they should be strong enough to expand on their own.

Of course I'm missing a lot of details with this but it may be a roughly what I think is possible. Barely, but still possible.

assasin said:

I think you're thinking a bit one dimensionally. Of course this is a pretty difficult challenge but different events in different parts of the world could reinforce each other. Such as maybe the Jews get their own state in Poland or somewhere Maybe when the Jews in various Christian lands get expelled they migrate to that state. Eventually a pogrom happens and they successfully fight off the peasant hordes and end up solidifying their power base and building up a fairly strong army because of the need to defend themselves. They then start accepting other religious minorities such as Cathars. Then some major war starts up. Maybe an alternate Calvin or Luther starts arguing against corruption in the church or the ottomans manage to get a major stronghold in Europe. Other refugees flee into Jewish lands. Maybe an army attacks the already well fortified Jewish state (due to a siege mentality) and after getting defeated they occupy some surrounding land and it gets annexed by default. At this point the number of Jews in this state are getting diluted. After the main conflict is over the emperor of the HRE or whatever attacks them over land and it ends in a stalemate with Jews in control of majority Christian areas. At this point the Jews are veterans after fighting in multiple wars as well as defending themselves from the near constant boarder incursions by neighbours. They still don't have much power projection and no allies but that's about to change. They send diplomats South to negotiate with the Sublime Porte. Real Politik means the alliance holds for about a century until the Jewish state manages to get a port on the Med. At that point they should be strong enough to expand on their own.

Of course I'm missing a lot of details with this but it may be a roughly what I think is possible. Barely, but still possible.

Click to expand...

I think I'm thinking realistically.
Pogroms and what have you did lead OTL to many Ashkenazi resettling in Poland, but the local magnates and authorities were not about to give them discernible secular power except among their own, in their dispersed communities throughout the realm.
I think you paint a very implausible TL.

I think I'm thinking realistically.
Pogroms and what have you did lead OTL to many Ashkenazi resettling in Poland, but the local magnates and authorities were not about to give them discernible secular power except among their own, in their dispersed communities throughout the realm.
I think you paint a very implausible TL.

Click to expand...

Well there's a difference between implausible and ASB. Sure working towards a goal may not be the "hardest" way to do alternate history but as long as its possible I really don't care. You're the one who suggested Poland and I used it as a rough example because I don't know too many details. But the way I see is that all that's really needed to make it possible for a state to rise is to have a high enough concentration of Jews in a certain area (I'm thinking maybe an alternate policy where Jews are shoved into unpopulated piece of land instead of Ghettoes) and have enough of a population to revolt if the guy who owns that land gets distracted by a major war. The part that might be considered ASB is them managing to stay strong enough to not get overrun by another power once that war is done. But I guess that could also be handled by asking protection from something like the Sublime Porte. At first they'd probably be a puppet but they could grow from there.

I asked this as an alternate history challenge. I generally rate the difficulty of alternate history challenges by how plausible they are. I've got a rough theory of how such a thing may work. I'd prefer details but if no one is willing I'll work with what I have. Sure such an alternate Jewish settlement pattern might take a century or two of butterflies before someone thinks of it but I don't see a problem with that.

Post 1400 makes it a very hard POD. I don't see how it can be done in Christian Europe or Muslim Middle East and North Africa. Any Jews simply don't have the possibility of being an independent political/military power that could grow to become a major power.

If some kind of rump-Khazar state had survived until then, then perhaps a brilliant steppe warrior along the lines of a Genghis Khan or Tamerlane might be able to re-establish a Khazaria steppe empire based on military victories and personal charisma when the Mongol Empire begins to implode. 1400 is right around the time Tamerland destroys the Golden Horde and then dies soon after. IOTL, the Golden Horde continued to limp for another century as an ever decreasing khanate. ITTL, one of these smaller khantes is a revived Khazaria, starting small but eventually dominating the Pontic steppes. A traditional steppe empire is established, but goes back to the religious pluralism of the Genghis tradition albeit with a Jewish dynasty at its head. However, Jews looking for a safe place to go end up settling there, and eventually provide a basis for a modern state. In the short term, it provides a balance between Poland-Lithuania, Muscovy, and the Ottomans and somehow survives.

Unfortunately, I don't think there are any rump-Khazar states/khanates by 1400 to fulfill this role. I think the last had perished 200-300 years beforehand.

I think the best bet is in North America. Here are a number of scenarios, although I'm not sure which is the most plausible:

1) For whatever reason, one of the fishermen visiting the Grand Banks of Newfoundland in the 15th or 16th centuries is Jewish. He gets shipwrecked, is taken in by a local native tribe, and proceeds to teach them new technologies which they are awed by. Many of them respond by converting to Judaism. This nation ends up with a technological edge over its neighbours and goes on a conquering spree, eventually becoming powerful enough to defend its lands against European powers.
Either:
1a) the shipwrecked sailor ends up becoming the ruler of a native nation and his mixed-race descnedants form the Jewish dynasty
OR
1b) the indigenous political leader converts to Judaisim and his/her descendants form the dynasty.

2) A group of Jewish merchants band together to establish a colony in the new world (much like Huguenot merchants who banded together to found France Antartique), but unlike France Antartique, it survives. The colony becomes a financial success (through fur trade/tobacco trade/plantation agriculture depending on location), and other Jews start to emigrate there. The colony makes an alliance with a European country anxious to establish a colonial presense (maybe Denmark or Austria??). The colony grows with an influx of both Jewish and non-Jewish settlers and eventually revolts against its mother country and establishes independence. The Jews being the first settlers have a prestigious status within the colony. Either:
2a) The colony, while originally organized as a merchant republic, becomes a monarchy once the Jewish elite feels threatened by the influx of non-Jewish immigrants. Originally it is organized as a Duchy of the sponsoring country with a Jewish Duke, but after independence the Duke elevates himself to
Kingship. or
2b) The colony is still a republic upon independence, but then a popular military leader during the war of indpendence (who just happens to be Jewish) is crowned King (a la George Washington).

3) The coincidence of a labour shortage in the New World and anti-Jewish sentiment in the Old Country leads one colonial power to start enslaving its
Jewish population and shipping them to the New World to work on plantations. The Jewish faith spreads from Jewish slaves to African slaves where it becomes adapted into a form of liberation theology. Eventually, the slaves overthrow their masters, and establish their own state. They appoint a Black Jewish ex-slave as King.

It's very hard in this timeframe. Blackfox5 has a good, though very implausible, idea.
The only other marginally viable possibility is that a substantial chunk of America is set up by, say, Spain or Portugal (maybe someone else, but they are the best bets) as a dumping ground for Jews, who are transferred there by the tens of thousands.
The place proves favorable (let's say it's the Eastern Seaboard of North America, or the Rio de la Plata estuary) and it flourishes big time.
Fast forward some centuries, and you can meet the challenge. However, it is still wildly unlikely, especially since Spain at least made a point about not letting Jews into the Americas, a provision that nominally extended to converts.

I just re-read the OP, and I've realized that in all my scenarios the state in question would not likely be a major power before 1800. It could be a minor power in the 19th century growing a major one in the 20th, but before 1800 it would likely still be a feldgling state.

assasin said:

This is pretty difficult one. I'm hoping with the amount of genius on this forum someone can figure out something that isn't too ASB.

So with a POD not before 1400 you must create a state ruled by a Jewish dynasty that is a major power before 1800 A few ground rules:


1. It should be within the European sphere of influence. It doesn't have to be in Europe but should be close enough that it would do diplomacy with actual governments and not trade companies. So I'm thinking limits would be around North Africa to the South, East coast of North America to the West, Persia to the East and the arctic to the north.

2. It doesn't need to be equal to France or England but it should be strong enough that it isn't in any other states sphere of influence. It should be able to hole its own in a war against one other power without outside assistance. It doesn't need to be the stongest militarily or navally but it needs to be able to survive.

3. While I expect it to be ruled by a Jewish dynasty (no republics) I'd rather not see mass conversions. Multiple religions are fine. It'd be nice to see Jews from other parts of Europe migrate there but its not completely necessary.

4. But I'd like to see the state being stable. It has to at least be stable enough to last until the twentieth century. And by last I don't hanging on by a thread. I don't want any sick man of Europe type deals here.


Now I know this is most likely ASB but considering I've given you a period of four hundred years to work with I could imagine a lot of butterflies during certain events. So maybe you'll think of something. There's the expulsion of the Jews from Spain. The discovery of the new world. Rise of revolutionary fervour. etc. etc. etc.

Click to expand...

Beta Israel in Ethiopia seems as the most plausible Jewish state, though it's certainly unclear if that counts as "North Africa."

Seleucus said:

Beta Israel in Ethiopia seems as the most plausible Jewish state, though it's certainly unclear if that counts as "North Africa."

Click to expand...

Not by Geographers...
There was in fact a Beta Israel state in Ethiopia that lasted until the 16th C. around the shores of Lake Tana. But making it a major early modern power would be a challenge.

Maybe some of the Jewish Berber tribes could gain power in North Africa, for a start. Or maybe the Khazars could hole up in the Caucasus (they sure as hell won't survive in Ukraine) and become an actual Jewish state (OTL, they were more nominally Jewish than otherwise). The second option seems easier to me, because the Caucasus is very defensible and I don't know enough about the Jewish Berbers. But from there you have the issue of trying to make a great power centered on the Caucasus...

'Ezana said:

Maybe some of the Jewish Berber tribes could gain power in North Africa, for a start. Or maybe the Khazars could hole up in the Caucasus (they sure as hell won't survive in Ukraine) and become an actual Jewish state (OTL, they were more nominally Jewish than otherwise).

Click to expand...

The Jewish Berber tribes had long before the POD converted to Islam.
There are a lot of interesting Jewish state scenarios possible if only the POD were earlier.

Herzen's love-child said:

The Jewish Berber tribes had long before the POD converted to Islam.
There are a lot of interesting Jewish state scenarios possible if only the POD were earlier.

Click to expand...

I only just noticed the "POD before 1400" which also invalidates my Khazar scenario. And Beta Israel already started declining by 1400, so it's hard to save them either.

You can just have the Rothschilds buy a state!

Didn't Ethiopia have a jewish dynasty?

Al B. Short said:

You can just have the Rothschilds buy a state!

Click to expand...

Somewhere small in Germany, you mean?

Or... h'mm...,
IOTL one of the Princes of Monaco got into serious debt, but was bailed-out by France in exchange for ceding about parts of the principality (Antibes and Mentone?). Maybe ITTL he makes a deal with the Rothschilds instead, adopting one of them as his heir?