Assuming that the German Navy either does not try or is not successful in scuttling itself in Scapa Flow after the armistice, what happens to it? I have read that there were proposals to divvy it up among some of the Entente powers but who would get what? Would Britain want all of it? Most? Or, given the costs of maintaining/refitting more ships after a major war, would they really want any of it? Maybe fob some ships off on the colonies/commonwealth countries to bulk up the foreign stations (and let other taxpayers deal with it)? What would France want? Italy? The U.S? Japan? Other countries? More importantly, once the dust settled and the negotiating was over, what would they be likely to get? What would be Germany be allowed to retain?
What If the High Seas Fleet Was Not Scuttled?
- Thread starter Kevin C. Smith
- Start date
LordKalvert
Banned
The French and Italians wanted to split it between the French, Italians, Americans and British each taking a fourth. Not aware of any specific as to who would get what ships. The British wanted them destroyed as it would decrease their relative advantage over their former allies.
Doubt if the British would defy the other powers by either trying to seize the fleet or scuttle it themselves. After four years of war, everyone was sick of it and such a provocative act is unlikely.
Doubt if the British would defy the other powers by either trying to seize the fleet or scuttle it themselves. After four years of war, everyone was sick of it and such a provocative act is unlikely.
Britain was planning on seizing the fleet during the night of 20-21 June but postponed it by 2 days. So if the High Seas Fleet didn't scuttle itself it would be seized by the British. Britain wouldn't want all that much of the fleet. I think they'd take Baden and Bayern and angle for as many of the Konigs and Derfflingers as they can get, though mostly to keep them out of the hands of the other powers. The rest of the fleet isn't worth having except for scrap metal. If Britain does get them I could see Derfflinger and Hindenburg being offered as more capable replacements for Australia and New Zealand. However, the problem with taking the German ships is that the German navy used a unique technique for sealing the breach block that really only worked with a cartridge. As a result Germany used a primary bagged charge and a smaller secondary one in a brass cartridge. No other navy used this same technique so introducing it would be a major logistical complication. In addition, virtually the entire German fleet used 12 inch guns which would seem rather small for 1919. Although it wouldn't impact their utility all that much, 12-inch ships served with various navies perfectly well in the post-war period, it would be unpopular with the public. Lastly, Germany wouldn't be allowed any of the fleet. They weren't in OTL so they won't in TTL.
Any chance third party nations (ie those in South America, Asia, or European neutrals) have been given the opportunity to either buy some discount or been given them as compensation for pre war orders that failed to eventuate due to the war? It could have given such countries an opportunity to have that increased naval status of on the cheap.
Cook
Banned
By the time of the scuttling, it had already been agreed between the allies that the High Seas Fleet would be scrapped, the outstanding dispute was whether it would mostly be scrapped by British or American yards. Ironically it had been settled that the steel was going to be treated as per the (formerly) German railways in now independent Poland and in Alsace and Loraine: its value being deducted from the sum value of the war preparations demanded from Germany; so the scuttling of the ships by the skeleton crews actually damaged German interests.
Check Margaret Macmillan's 'Paris 1919: Six Months that Changed the World' for the full details.
Check Margaret Macmillan's 'Paris 1919: Six Months that Changed the World' for the full details.
The big difference would be that Germany would have been stuck with lower reparations. As I remember it once the fleet was scuttled the allies increased the amount of reparations that Germany was forced to pay in order to replace the value of the fleet. This increased the economic problems in Germany which created the fertile ground for the Hitler and the Nazi party
The design of the High Seas Fleet makes them hard to use for most of the other powers, save perhaps France and Italy. Because the High Seas Fleet would only have to fight in the North Sea, their endurance and ability to operate away from port for more than a week was somewhat minimal. That makes them hard to use if you are the US, Japanese, or Royal Navy.
I've been meaning to get that out of the library for a while, is it as good as I've heard?
I read the Entente planned on letting the Germans keep the Nassau and Helgoland-class Dreadnoughts, since they were obsolete compared to the likes of the Queen Elizabeth and Colorado-classes. After the High Seas Fleet was scuttled, they seized those and left the Germans with only a handful of pre-Dreanoughts.
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Given their poor condition from bad maintenance following Jutland, their cramped conditions for short sorties in the confined North Sea, and general obsolence, very few of the ships at Scapa would be valuable to any of the main naval powers, which explains why its likely they all would have been scrapped. Britain and the USA have no real need for any ex-German ships, because with the possible exception of the Badens their latest construction outclasses anything in the HSF. I suppose the US might have some slight interest in the Derflingers as a stopgap battlecruiser until the Lexingtons are on line, but I doubt it. Japan, on the otherhand would probably be very interested in the Derflingers, and perhaps even the Koenigs and Badens. Crew habitabiliy and endurance is less of a concern to he Japanese because of their doctine to fight a decisive battle near Japan and this would be a cheap way of creating a better balance against the USN. An issue with the Japanese and Americans is that they are already engaged in their own naval race, and any acquisitions by one might prompt a counter claim by the other. Both Italy and France would have use of the German ships because range is far less an issue in the Mediterranean. France's navy was so woefully obsolete that virtually any German dreadought BB or BC would be a useful addition. Itlay was not in as bad a shape, but they too would have had use of more German ships than anyone else.
Of Course, the factors leading to the Washington Treaty would probably still be at play, and once that was signed, most remaining ex-German ships would probably end up being scrapped anyway..
Of Course, the factors leading to the Washington Treaty would probably still be at play, and once that was signed, most remaining ex-German ships would probably end up being scrapped anyway..
Also discussed at and I suggested a split of ships what do you think ?https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=316872&highlight=Hindenburg
JSB
JSB
The problem is that the first time anything "broke" on one of these the new owner would have problems - no spare parts. For the British and the Americans even worse since even nuts and bolts are metric and not English. unlike the days of sail, a captured warship causes lots of problems unless you do a lot of reworking. Perhaps once acquired some would sold to navies that could not otherwise afford capital ships and/or do just fine with somewhat older models (think South America, Thailand(?) etc).
I doubt that the new construction that was aborted under the Washington Treaty would be stopped because of the acquisition of marginally useful ex-HSF units. By & large they were good for targets and razor blades.
I doubt that the new construction that was aborted under the Washington Treaty would be stopped because of the acquisition of marginally useful ex-HSF units. By & large they were good for targets and razor blades.
Did the Japanese have problems acquiring spares for the ships they captured from the Russian's? That's the only case I can think of a navy using captured warships on a permanent basis.
So basically, all the Germans managed to do by scuttling the fleet was make things overall worse for themselves. Wouldn't be the first time pride and vainglory messed somebody up.
Though, I must say I never understood the whole thing about keeping the sailors onboard. Why weren't they marched off the ships after docking at Scapa Flow? I thought due prudence would've made the Entente remove German personnel off the ships as soon as possible.
Though, I must say I never understood the whole thing about keeping the sailors onboard. Why weren't they marched off the ships after docking at Scapa Flow? I thought due prudence would've made the Entente remove German personnel off the ships as soon as possible.
Not only that but any ships that joined the US fleet would be maintenance nightmares since they were built using metric standards/dimensions/units rather than US customary units, etc. A special complement of tools, parts, etc. would be required for just those ships. Then there's the extra training required for operation/maintenance (you want to have to have an engineer's mate have to constantly go for conversion tables or a slide rule in the heat of battle?). I doubt such ships would last long in the US fleet (or British, given that metrication hadn't happened there yet) under such circumstances.
David S Poepoe
Banned
It isn't written about much, at least in English language sources, but probably is discussed in Japanese material, the Japanese did have problems. The captured Russian battleship Retvizan had many of its guns replaced by Japanese built or supplied models. The refitting of the Russian warships caused a shortage of Japanese 12in guns so that the Satsuma, which would have been an all-big gun warship was completed with mixed armament of 12in and 10in guns.
David S Poepoe
Banned
The German warships were not docked in Scapa Flow but were anchored within it. There probably certainly were not enough barracks to house the German crews.
IIRC, the High Seas fleet at anchor in Scapa Flow in 1919 only had sufficient crew onboard to act as an anchor watch and and feeding ten thousand or more near mutinous German sailors in 1918/19 was not something the RN would undertake unless absolutely necessary.