Italians stop at Halfaya Pass in 1940?

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Deleted member 1487

What if during the initial Italian offensive into Egypt in 1940 they had stopped and fortified on Halfaya Pass until they could build up enough logistics to continue further in 1941 (building up the Benghazi-Tobruk rail road)? The OTL advance of the Italians bogged down due to supply issues and left the Italians stuck in the desert without a serious defensive line that the British exploited to smash their forces:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Egypt#The_invasion
On 16 September, the 3rd Coldstream Guards were almost cut off when a large group of Italian tanks moved inland from the coastal road in the region of Alam el Dab. A timely radio call to the 11th Hussars summoned assistance and kept the trap from closing. By the end of the same day, most of the covering forces had successfully withdrawn to the vicinity of Mersa Matruh.[26] By this time, the Italian advance had progressed about as far as it was going to go, the 1st Blackshirt Division had taken Sidi Barrani.[30]
The Italians advanced to Maktila, 10 mi (16 km) beyond Sidi Barrani; at that point, Graziani halted, citing supply problems. He laid out his troubles to Mussolini and Badoglio as thick as he dared. In doing so, he declared that the approach march to Mersa Matruh would take six days since his forces would all be on foot. Among other things, the list of items he required now included something new: 600 mules. It seems he had given up hope of receiving more transport vehicles.[2]

During the advance, the Italians captured a number of British airfields.[31]
Despite Mussolini urging him to continue the advance, Graziani dug in at Sidi Barrani. In addition, he established nine fortified camps at Maktila, Tummar (2), Nibeiwa and on top of the escarpment at Sofafi (4).[32] To his rear, he positioned Italian divisions at Buq Buq, Sidi Omar, and the Halfaya Pass.[33] Graziani was now about 80 mi (130 km) west of the main British defensive positions at Mersa Matruh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass
Operation Compass was the first major Allied military operation of the Western Desert Campaign during World War II. British and Commonwealth forces attacked Italian forces in western Egypt and eastern Libya in December 1940 to February 1941. The operation was a complete success from the perspective of the Allies. Allied forces advanced from inside Egypt to central Libya suffering very few casualties and captured 115,000 Italian prisoners. The Italians lost hundreds of tanks and over a thousand each of artillery pieces and aircraft.[6]

Had the Italians held on the only viable defensive position between Libya and Egypt, Halfaya Pass, it seems like their forces could have held easily and the British would have spent much of 1941 trying to bash their way through. Thoughts on how this would effect the Desert War?
 
You seem to have forgotten something, the Italians didn't have anything that could crack Matilda armour, so holding there wouldn't have stopped the British long.
 
It's politically impossible for the Italians to stop at Hellfire Pass. Benny the Moose thought that Egypt was ripe for the taking - he would NOT have agreed to a halt at the pass.
 

Deleted member 1487

You seem to have forgotten something, the Italians didn't have anything that could crack Matilda armour, so holding there wouldn't have stopped the British long.

Direct fire artillery would have worked.

It's politically impossible for the Italians to stop at Hellfire Pass. Benny the Moose thought that Egypt was ripe for the taking - he would NOT have agreed to a halt at the pass.
Perhaps after advancing and bogging down Graziani could act on his own initiative to withdraw to the Pass and hold there to make a point to Mussolini about the logistics situation?
 

sharlin

Banned
Direct fire artillery would have worked.

DF arty works if you're not under fire yourself, the Italians lacked heavy artillery and their light howitzers would not have cracked a matilda's armour, also arty is not built to shoot at tanks (don't bring up the 88, they were designed for it) so for an arty peice to hit a tank is more a matter of skill and luck rather than just 'it will work'.
 
Direct fire artillery would have worked.


Perhaps after advancing and bogging down Graziani could act on his own initiative to withdraw to the Pass and hold there to make a point to Mussolini about the logistics situation?

In which case Benny fires Graziani and appoints someone who will obey orders. Benny did not have the most.... realistic view of what was or was not militarily possible at times.
 

Deleted member 1487

DF arty works if you're not under fire yourself, the Italians lacked heavy artillery and their light howitzers would not have cracked a matilda's armour, also arty is not built to shoot at tanks (don't bring up the 88, they were designed for it) so for an arty peice to hit a tank is more a matter of skill and luck rather than just 'it will work'.

Just as the Soviets discovered with their howitzers though the armor isn't cracked the crews are disabled by the shock of the blast of a large caliber explosive round. The Italians though did adapt their 75mm field artillery into capable AT guns, aren't they enough to do the job?

As to Italian guns:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone_da_75/32_modello_37
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_105_mle_1913_Schneider
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obice_da_105/14
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obice_da_149/19_modello_37
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone_da_75/46_C.A._modello_34
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone_da_90/53
 

Deleted member 1487

In which case Benny fires Graziani and appoints someone who will obey orders. Benny did not have the most.... realistic view of what was or was not militarily possible at times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_invasion_of_Egypt#The_invasion
Concerning the Italian invasion of Egypt, Mussolini asked the following on 26 October:
Forty days after the capture of Sidi Barrani I ask myself the question, to whom has this long halt been any use—to us or to the enemy? I do not hesitate to answer, it has been of much use, indeed, more to the enemy... It is time to ask whether you feel you wish to continue to command.[2]

Two days later, on 28 October, the Italian Army invaded Greece and the focus was off both Egypt and Graziani. He was allowed to continue his planning at a leisurely pace. An Italian advance to Mersa Matruh was scheduled to start on 15 December... or maybe 18 December. But soon Graziani and the Italians were to lose control of the pace of events in Egypt.[2]

Given the situation, assuming Graziani uses the cover of the Greek Invasion to withdraw, how soon before Mussolini reacts and sacks him, given that he already asked if Graziani was willing to continue considering all of the issues here. Perhaps Mussolini won't react for a while given the problems in Greece if Graziani pulls back in mid-November; it would disjoint the British offensive, but that would kick off soon enough and Graziani proved right, maybe before Mussolini could become aware of the pull back and react. I'm not sure how hands on he was.
 
Italian Defensive Doctrine

At what point during the British offensive (with Matilda's rumbling through the Italian lines) does the Italian heavy artillery suddenly as one think ..... hold on a minute let's relocate our guns to provide an anti tank perimeter, get comms set up to deal with our new role, divvy up the batteries to provide counter battery, fire support and suppression, etc etc etc
Perhaps the Brits will brew tea for a few days whilst we get that sorted? :rolleyes:
 

sharlin

Banned
At what point during the British offensive (with Matilda's rumbling through the Italian lines) does the Italian heavy artillery suddenly as one think ..... hold on a minute let's relocate our guns to provide an anti tank perimeter, get comms set up to deal with our new role, divvy up the batteries to provide counter battery, fire support and suppression, etc etc etc
Perhaps the Brits will brew tea for a few days whilst we get that sorted? :rolleyes:

Of course they will...because "Unf unf Axis Senpai unf!" The Italian army looked good on paper and there were some very good units who fought very hard, but they were not inovative, they were not well lead (for the most part) nor well equipped and trained. And with Benny cracking the whip they would not stop at a logically defensive position when Egypt was 'obviously' a ripe apple ready for plucking.
 

Deleted member 1487

Of course they will...because "Unf unf axis unf!" The Italian army looked good on paper and there were some very good units who fought very hard, but they were not inovative, they were not well lead (for the most part) nor well equipped and trained. And with Benny cracking the whip they would not stop at a logically defensive position when Egypt was 'obviously' a ripe apple ready for plucking.

By October Benny apparently recognized this was as far as things were going to go for a while due to logistics and the fact that for 5-6 weeks the Italian army was stuck in place asking for mules.

As to the artillery issue, was the Italian army incapable of improvisation? If they have a position on the Pass that is well supported by artillery, as the Italian army still had a WW1 doctrine, some could not have been put into dual purpose use?

This field gun was used as an AT piece:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannone_da_75/32_modello_37

The Matilda II was a 25 ton tank with at most 78mm armor and that above gun could have pierced it. Plus with its 6mph speed on desert terrain it was as fast as WW1 era tanks and would have been highly vulnerable direct fire. Beyond that though in a concentrated artillery environment like Halifaya Pass even indirect fire could have hit it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matilda_II
Ultimately, in the rapid manoeuvre warfare often practised in the open desert of North Africa, the Matilda's low speed and unreliable steering mechanism became major problems. Another problem was the lack of a high-explosive shell (the appropriate shell existed but was not issued).
 

sharlin

Banned
Because to use Arty in a AT role you have to move the guns to the front lines. Having an arty peice say 8 km back and go "You are now an AT gun! Take out that Matilda!" would result in this;

"Italian artillery has used HE!!!"

"It missed."

"Its not very effective!"

Also a 624ms = looooow muzzle velocity, yes its a big gun but its basically a French 75 given a new name with Made in Italy stamped on its arse. And unless they were firing HEAT ammo (french invention) they were generally a poor AT weapon. The Italians would have to move their guns up forwards with foresight of going "We're going to need these against the British tanks!" which then means moving them all forwards, digging in etc. This also has the added bonus of making your artillery guns priority targets that can now be targetted by attacking tanks. BAD END.

Please don't put WoT logic into WW2.
 

Deleted member 1487

Because to use Arty in a AT role you have to move the guns to the front lines. Having an arty peice say 8 km back and go "You are now an AT gun! Take out that Matilda!" would result in this;

"Italian artillery has used HE!!!"

"It missed."

"Its not very effective!"

Also a 624ms = looooow muzzle velocity, yes its a big gun but its basically a French 75 given a new name with Made in Italy stamped on its arse. And unless they were firing HEAT ammo (french invention) they were generally a poor AT weapon. The Italians would have to move their guns up forwards with foresight of going "We're going to need these against the British tanks!" which then means moving them all forwards, digging in etc. This also has the added bonus of making your artillery guns priority targets that can now be targetted by attacking tanks. BAD END.

Please don't put WoT logic into WW2.

Why is it so hard to have artillery positioned forward to counter the superior British tanks, especially in a position the Italians would have a month or more to prepare so that the pieces would be well defended and camouflaged? Plus its not like they can't knock a track off or wait and get a flank shot.

You're starting to delve into the 'Allies are invincible because they were IOTL' territory, while accusing me of 'Axis wank' from the get go. Starting to sound like projection.

http://www.egyptstudycircle.org.uk/Articles/p280QC223.pdf
I had intended to begin by saying that the Italians were nearly always portrayed unfairly as having a very
poor fighting reputation; but nearly all the works I have consulted indicate that this was not the case. This
unfair judgment, written mainly from the Allied side during the war, survived in a lot of postwar literature
and is unfair to the individual Italian soldiers who in many cases fought bravely when given the chance to do
so. In the imagination of the British Army and the Allied press it was the Italian soldier who was lacking in
military skill and fighting spirit. Once this reputation for military ineptitude had gained ground after the
crushing defeats in 1940 from Sidi Barrani to Beda Fomm, it was perpetuated by the British as a propaganda
tool.

Most of the accounts of Axis forces in the campaigns in North Africa concentrate on the German military,
sometimes to the extent that one could imagine that they consisted only of the Deutsches Afrika Korps
(DAK) commanded by Rommel. This over-simplistic view is wrong on several accounts. Although Rommel
was without doubt the most important person for the Axis forces he at times had more Italian troops and
tanks under his command than German, while some of his victories were due to the efforts of the Italian tank
divisions. Remember also that the DAK, after the initial stages, was only one part of the total German forces in North Africa.
 

sharlin

Banned
Heavily defended by what? The italian tanks? Yep they would be useful. The infantry could keep the british infantry busy but a artillery peice is not a small thing. Even the small 75's so common for the time and one firing would not be something that the tankies would go "Gosh golly! *snorts lead paint* That was a big rifle shot what what?!" and ignore.

Also moving the guns forward makes them vulnerable to british arty fire as it would be concentrated on the dug in positions. And then you're in a quandry. With say 50% of your guns in AT positions, do you return fire, get spotted and then get shot at, or do you hold fire and wait for the British tanks, loose the artillery battle and possibly get hit by a 25lb shell anyhow?

Or are we assuming the British are going CAERG!!!!!!!! and just throwing tanks at a known dug in position because 'reasons'/Axis Senpai/Jazzhands?
 

Deleted member 1487

Perhaps we go back further and have Italo Balbo survive to command the operation?
 

sharlin

Banned
Perhaps we go back further and have Italo Balbo survive to command the operation?

And whilst we're at it shall we have Benny have some kind of benificial stroke so this does not happen.

Benny "Attack Egypt"
Billy "But Sir...we have the advantage of a.."
Benny "Perhaps you didn't hear me, attack Egypt and if you refuse I can have you replaced."
Billy: "Yes Sir."

The moose is a dictator and he's got a 'vulnerable target' in the form of Egypt lying prostate before him. The problem starts with Benny, and unless you change him then re-arranging the deckchairs on the Invasion barges won't help.

*edit*

remember, Benny is an opportunist, he threw his country into the war thinking it was all over bar the shouting and wanted some nice easy land grabs from France. That door slammed shut on his fingers so next its Egypt and its small forces. Despite his Generals going "Uhh..Sir..." whilst sweating nervously, he ordered the attack thinking again it was going to be easy. We know the OTL result. The Italians got curb stomped and their teeth kicked in. He then looks at week and vulnerable greece...

Benny's overconfident and listens to one person. Himself. That's where the problem starts (well apart from being oh you know an Axis power...thats a problem too...) for the Italians.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Heavily defended by what? The italian tanks? Yep they would be useful. The infantry could keep the british infantry busy but a artillery peice is not a small thing. Even the small 75's so common for the time and one firing would not be something that the tankies would go "Gosh golly! *snorts lead paint* That was a big rifle shot what what?!" and ignore.

Also moving the guns forward makes them vulnerable to british arty fire as it would be concentrated on the dug in positions. And then you're in a quandry. With say 50% of your guns in AT positions, do you return fire, get spotted and then get shot at, or do you hold fire and wait for the British tanks, loose the artillery battle and possibly get hit by a 25lb shell anyhow?

Or are we assuming the British are going CAERG!!!!!!!! and just throwing tanks at a known dug in position because 'reasons'/Axis Senpai/Jazzhands?

Lots of pontification, but little substance.
Who said put half of the artillery in front? 10% at most in camouflaged positions with orders to engage when close enough, having switch positions to move to after the battle to avoid getting plastered next go around. IOTL we have examples of the British using rather inflexible attacks on fixed positions and getting slaughtered at Halfaya Pass, which, given its compressed battlefield and the relative strength of each combatant in Operation Compass, its not hard to see that forcing it in 1941 is going to be hard; the British were able to exploit the gapping gaps in the Italian lines around Sidi Barani IOTL to wipe out their forces, but won't be able to ITTL, so will have to push right through and into much greater firepower than they themselves could muster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Compass
Strength
British:
36,000 soldiers[1]
120 artillery pieces
275 tanks
142 aircraft[2][nb 1]

Italian:
150,000 soldiers
1,600 artillery pieces
600 tanks, mostly tankettes
331 aircraft[3]

Casualties and losses
British:
500 killed[4]
55 missing[4]
1,373 wounded[4]
15 aircraft[5]

Italian:
3,000 killed
115,000 captured
400 tanks
1,292 artillery pieces
1,249 aircraft [nb 2]

1,600 artillery pieces concentrated at Halfaya against 120 British guns is going to give them a lot of flexibility to use guns forward, while having 1,249 aircraft for use against the British; even if the artillery is totally ineffective bomb dropping aircraft, including dive capable biplanes, are going to be able to stop the British tanks if need be. The British did not yet have the logistics to move around the southern flank of the Pass, which was pretty far south considering the necessary detour:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/WesternDesertBattle_Area1941_en.svg
 
If the Italians decide to sit at Halfaya Pass then that's fine as far as Wavell is concerned.

Its a gift.

Wavells forces were fighting in 3 continents in 1940/41 and if one of the largest forces decides to sit on its hands for 6 months the great juggler of finite assets would happily leave a covering force in place while building up his desert force and fighting in a dozen different countries.

And as has been mentioned the Italian command thought the British were weak in Africa in 1940 and badly out numbered.
 
Why is it so hard to have artillery positioned forward to counter the superior British tanks, especially in a position the Italians would have a month or more to prepare so that the pieces would be well defended and camouflaged? Plus its not like they can't knock a track off or wait and get a flank shot.

You're starting to delve into the 'Allies are invincible because they were IOTL' territory, while accusing me of 'Axis wank' from the get go. Starting to sound like projection.

http://www.egyptstudycircle.org.uk/Articles/p280QC223.pdf

Point One
Is a complete change of doctrine with no drivers
Point Two
Every thread seems to be an Axis Wank where the research done is go to Wikipedia an take selective quotes to build a "Wicker Man" pyre for The Allies
 

sharlin

Banned
Answer these questions.

1) Why would the Italians dig in when they are ordered to take Egypt? Thats their objective, sitting on their arse for 2 months about 10 miles into Egypt is not going to achive that, especially with Benny going "Hey guys..wanna get a move on? Like..Now. Because i'm ordering you to (Ps nice families you've got here..shame if anything were to happen to them. Lots of Love Benny)." Because again, opportunist bully sensing an easy victim.

2) That the British would throw themselves at the Italians if they had very very very obviously dug in? Unless they wanted to do "The Somme, the sunny, sandy and hot version!" It would be plain madness for OConnor to just go and attack a very strong, very very obviously dug in position.
 
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