No Rommel in Africa

I was listening to the radio yesterday "great lives", slightly cringe making programme about Rommel.

What caught my attention was the idea that sending Rommel to Africa was basically a whim of Hitler and the Army wanted a more conventional officer with defensive instructions. Suppose Hitler decides he wants to save his favourite for Russia and takes the Army advice, would it make any difference?

I mean was O'Conner too stretched to hold even against a less reckless foe?

Depends on who they'd sent out instead of Rommel. Whoever it would be, they'd probably be more of a stickler for obeying orders and holding on the Sirte line.

AFAICT, Rommel made big desperate gambles where he basically ignored logistics. He's considered good because he succeeded in a lot of them early on, and from then his better position helped him endure counterattacks - the Axis, in miniature. If he'd rolled the dice and failed first time, he'd be basically considered a headstrong idiot who ruined everything...
In that vein, with no Rommel in Africa, it'd probably be seen as inevitable that the Germans were going to lose, and that they did as well as they could because of logistical concerns.

So if The Germans/Italians hold on the Sirte line, what else changes? With the pressure off in Africa can more attention hold Greece (Well, No) but butterflies may hold crete (which has been discussed before). Of course with a defensive Commander in North Africa the British will learn a lot less about mobile warfare, although they may learn more about using armour and artillery to break a line.

I can't see any effects on the Eastern front but a secure Egypt will affect Iraq. I have seen time lines that assume a less volatile Med produces a more secure Far East although until the Imperial General Staff believes Japan really might attack any expansion east of Suez has to look like a poor investment. ON the other hand the troops have to go somewhere.

As for Rommel, he really probably ends up commanding a Panzer Army or something like Hoth or Guderian. He certainly wouldn't be remembered like he is, the Desert Fox. Sure, he'll have his glories in France, but I would assume he'd drop off the radar for most people who don't have an interest in the German Army during that period.

He might survive the War. He might not. Really depends on how he views Hitler. The Russian Front might sour his view of the Führer quicker, or it might keep him in line.

The problem is, Rommel correctly noted that the desert was a wide open space with little capability for defensive arrangements, so the best place to set up a defensive line is actually Halfaya Pass slightly inside the Egyptian border, otherwise the position will simply get surrounded, and destroyed.

Generaloberst said:

As for Rommel, he really probably ends up commanding a Panzer Army or something like Hoth or Guderian. He certainly wouldn't be remembered like he is, the Desert Fox. Sure, he'll have his glories in France, but I would assume he'd drop off the radar for most people who don't have an interest in the German Army during that period.

He might survive the War. He might not. Really depends on how he views Hitler. The Russian Front might sour his view of the Führer quicker, or it might keep him in line.

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Rommel also made a name for being humane in North Africa. Sad to say that the Eastern Front wasn't a place where German forces behaved in anything like a humane manner.

Maybe it forces him to turn against Hitler much sooner?

MattII said:

Maybe it forces him to turn against Hitler much sooner?

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I doubt it, it seems to me he did not turn against Hitler so much as not object when other people he knew took action when the war was obviously lost. If he is fighting in Russia then the brutality will force him into the line of defending the homeland no matter what.

Remember though, it wasn't just in Africa, when he was in charge in France he asked Hitler to be allowed to kill some SS men after seeing them doing nasty stuff. that speaks of a man who'd not only humane in himself but can't seem to understand inhumanity in others.

cerebus said:

I doubt it, it seems to me he did not turn against Hitler so much as not object when other people he knew took action when the war was obviously lost. If he is fighting in Russia then the brutality will force him into the line of defending the homeland no matter what.

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When you plan on surrendering the German armies in the West to end the war nearly a year early after your leader gets killed something you know about and tell other generals has to happen you have turned against your government.

MattII said:

Remember though, it wasn't just in Africa, when he was in charge in France he asked Hitler to be allowed to kill some SS men after seeing them doing nasty stuff. that speaks of a man who'd not only humane in himself but can't seem to understand inhumanity in others.

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Yes, when the SS Der Führer Regiment gassed and burned alive 640 civilians in retributive mass killing Rommel went ballistic and demanded the leaders of the division be punished (and that he lead the court marshal).

jmc247 said:

When you plan on surrendering the German armies in the West to end the war nearly a year early after your leader gets killed something you know about and tell other generals has to happen you have turned against your government.

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But the only evidence for this is the word of a captured plotter under torture by the Gestapo. Or am I misremembering?

cerebus said:

But the only evidence for this is the word of a captured plotter under torture by the Gestapo. Or am I misremembering?

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The WAllies knew from listening to captured German generals conversations by wiretapping their house a month before he was suicided what Rommel had planned and it was only recently declassified a short clip on it below.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j9SFwVMlMIc

The plan was with the chaos in Berlin to do a Lee at Appomattox and surrender the Army Groups in the West, Rommel knew they wouldn't get any conditions at that point, but he also knew having Central Europe being occupied by Stalin could be the end of his country and by ending it early he could save a lot of lives.

if this result as Manstein in Africa...

Son of Leman Russ said:

if this result as Manstein in Africa...

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Wasnt Paulus intended to be the commander but he on the advice of his wife declined?

I think given the early war advantage of the German 'Mission Command' leadership model over the British methods in 1940-42 - as well as the head start in experience and training of the German Armed forces any decent German Commander could have been sent.

It was good for the British though - Rommel taught them all he knew but by mid 1942 he had not learned the British lessons of Logistics (Logistics was something suffered by others as far as Rommel was concerned)

As for the man. He was the Good German, the good general and fought the clean war. Not for him the shooting of Prisoners or carrying out the 'Commando order' and while much has been made of his supposed resistance to Hitler which cost him his life - I think it is right an proper that alone of the Generals his name appears on Barracks and Warships in 'modern' Germany

With Rommel in the East it could go a lot of ways depending on how many troops he is given and where. He would have never made a lot of the mistakes Paulus and some others did like getting your troops stuck in Stalingrad and then refusing to pull out because Hitler says so. At the same time if they can't take Leningrad in 1941 the overall strategic picture will end up the same.

How would Rommel respond to having SS units not killing a few hundred people in his area of operations like in France and instead killing hundreds of thousands behind his lines? That is a hard one to say. His view on Hitler would collapse a fair bit earlier then OTL, but his options for resolving the issue are limited.

At least with the Western Allies he believed he could surrender and they would likely not end up doing the extreme shit they were talking about doing in the press like deindustrializing the country. With Stalin as far as he knew he would end up treating Germany like Ukraine.

Uruk said:

Wasnt Paulus intended to be the commander but he on the advice of his wife declined?

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Interesting butterflies if Paulus ends up in Africa and Rommel is in the East. Who commands the 6th army?

Interesting butterflies if Paulus ends up in Africa and Rommel is in the East. Who commands the 6th army?

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I can see Rommel overstretching his logistics badly trying to get the oil fields, but I can't see him getting stuck in that urban combat sand trap nor staying in such a situation because Hitler wants him to.

Paulus in Africa I am not sure had the depth of understanding of mobile warfare to do it. If Rommel was in the East they needed someone like Guderian in Africa.

Cryhavoc101 said:

As for the man. He was the Good German, the good general and fought the clean war. Not for him the shooting of Prisoners or carrying out the 'Commando order' and while much has been made of his supposed resistance to Hitler which cost him his life - I think it is right an proper that alone of the Generals his name appears on Barracks and Warships in 'modern' Germany

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Well yes Rommel's actions during the war tend to get forgotten in the modern era and those actions more then anything back then was why he was viewed very differently during the war. I remember one of the several hundred survivors of the Jewish Brigade a brigade of Jews made up of mostly Germans who fled to England in the 30s taking about his feelings about him.

They were captured by the Africa Korps in 1942 and OKW ordered they be killed as 'traitors' to Germany. Rommel was incredulous at how could these people be traitors when they were the ones pushed to leave Germany by its government so he burned the orders. These are the kind of things remembered during the Cold War, but less so today.