The unsuccessful rebellion

I think US could not have been born...

If Spain (Charles III) would have accepted the British (George III) alliance in 1776 (and It was possible a Spanish - British Alliance)... the history would be very different. France had never beaten the British-Spanish Fleets... and without the rule of the seas... France wouldn´t have sent troops to America...by contrast, the British from the North and East and the Spaniards from the West and South had "drowned" the american rebellion... with the naval rule.. the British hadn´t had difficulty carrying reinforcements, supplies and mercenaries to America

George III was ready to yield Gibraltar, Minorca and Florida... the Mississippi River had remained being the border between the Spanish and British dominions..

USA would have never existed ...today the Spanish Dominions (as California, Dakotas, Nevada, Oregon...) would be small countries almost uninhabited.. mostly indians and mestizos.. The British Dominions (New York, Indiana, Virginia, Carolinas...) would be little countries, with sparse population as Australia, Canada or New Zealand...

But Charles III rejected the Georgie´s proposition... and decided to join by the alliance with his French cousin (Louis XVI).

I think a Spanish-British alliance would be unbeatable in America in 1776.

The best Britain could have got from Spain was neutrality. Certainly not alliance.

There was the Bourbon family compact. And spanish interests conflicted English interests almost everywhere.

Matteo said:

The best Britain could have got from Spain was neutrality. Certainly not alliance.

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You are right, I Know the Spanish Bourbons were very much concerned about the Family... but the British proposal occured...



I think that would have happened if Spain and Britain signed an alliance in 1776 - 1777... the fate of the American Rebellion would has been sealed.
Not French Support, not Spanish Suppor to Rebellion... fighting against the Royal Navy, Real Armada and British and Spanish Armies and american royalist would have been very hard proof to the american rebellion.
In 1779 or 1780, they would have surrendered... Britain would have yielded Minorca, Gibraltar and Florida, the Mississippi Rive would remained being the line, and Don´t us forget the British commitment to intervene militarily if there was a rebellion in the Spanish dominions ... and nowadays History would has been very very different:

Dakota would be as the south of Chile or Argentina: almost uninhabited, Florida as Eastern Nicaragua, Georgia as Jamaica, Carolina as Haiti and New York as Auckland...

But Charles III rejected the Alliance..Just says OK ... and the world as we know It would be very very different, I think.

martin76 said:

You are right, I Know the Spanish Bourbons were very much concerned about the Family... but the British proposal occured...



I think that would have happened if Spain and Britain signed an alliance in 1776 - 1777... the fate of the American Rebellion would has been sealed.
Not French Support, not Spanish Suppor to Rebellion... fighting against the Royal Navy, Real Armada and British and Spanish Armies and american royalist would have been very hard proof to the american rebellion.
In 1779 or 1780, they would have surrendered... Britain would have yielded Minorca, Gibraltar and Florida, the Mississippi Rive would remained being the line, and Don´t us forget the British commitment to intervene militarily if there was a rebellion in the Spanish dominions ... and nowadays History would has been very very different:

Dakota would be as the south of Chile or Argentina: almost uninhabited, Florida as Eastern Nicaragua, Georgia as Jamaica, Carolina as Haiti and New York as Auckland...

But Charles III rejected the Alliance..Just says OK ... and the world as we know It would be very very different, I think.

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The point is, Britain and Spain hated each other.
History indeed would have been much different but the possibility of this alliance is near to none.

France had been beaten as a colonial rival and Spain was really the only threat left to Britain's possessions. They clashed everywhere in the world.

More likely would be that Britain and Spain blunder into war earlier - perhaps over the Falklands dispute in 1770.

Another defeat for the Franco-Spanish fleets and perhaps British annexation of Louisianna and even California would defer the American Revolution and accelerate the collapse of French finances (and potentially the French revolution).

How any colonial rebellion might proceed post a "Falkland War" is difficult to say - Britain will be exhausted but the colonists would have no support. They would have the wide open spaces of Louisianna to develop though.

PoeFacedKilla said:

The point is, Britain and Spain hated each other.
History indeed would have been much different but the possibility of this alliance is near to none.

France had been beaten as a colonial rival and Spain was really the only threat left to Britain's possessions. They clashed everywhere in the world.

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You are right PoeFacedKilla. The hate never is a good adviser... the relations between countries should not be played by human feelings but by common interests .. The British proposition to Prince of Masserano (The Spanish Embassador in London) was very beneficial for both empires.

Yes, history indeed would have been very much different... I think Spaniards made a historical error.. in 1783 was not only a British Defeat.. but a Spanish one...
I think there was a chance to the Spanish-Britisih Alliance.. There were Hispanophiles politicals in London and Anglophiles in Madrid...They should have overcome the reluctance and having negotiated based in the British offert.

You are right again.. Britain had finished French and Dutch Empires... and somehow, the Portuguese Empire was an ally ... just the Spanish empire showed its strength against the British assaults. But Spain was not a thread to British Empire...an alliance between both empires would have meant in practice the allocation of overseas territories between the two giants... and a very different world today...not better or worse but different.

Do you know the Secret Memorial of Count of Aranda? He was so intelligent man that he predicted the global power of the United States ... predicted that no European power could defeat the Spanish dominions ... but the US would destroy the Spanish Empire.. and he wrote in 1783

The independence of the English colonies has been recognized and the same is for me a source of pain and fear...

France or Netherland had little empires... had nothing to lose .. but American independence, .... It was the biggest threat never had the Spanish Empire! ...
Unfortunately when Aranda wrote... it was in 1783, It was late, too late ...
But in 1777 It would have changed the world.

El paso primero de esta potencia, cuando haya llegado á engrandecerse, será apoderarse de las Floridas para dominar el Golfo de México. Después de habernos hecho de este modo dificultoso el comercio con la Nueva España, aspirará á la conquista de este vasto imperio, que nos será posible defender contra una potencia formidable, establecida sobre el mismo continente, y á más de eso limítrofe. (Count of Aranda, Secret Memorial to the King, 1783) He predicted the US expansion into Florida (first) and westward to the Gulf of Mexico and the Pacific ... expansion that could only be at the expense of the Spanish Empire.

1783 late, too late.

Derek Pullem said:

More likely would be that Britain and Spain blunder into war earlier - perhaps over the Falklands dispute in 1770.

Another defeat for the Franco-Spanish fleets and perhaps British annexation of Louisianna and even California would defer the American Revolution and accelerate the collapse of French finances (and potentially the French revolution).

How any colonial rebellion might proceed post a "Falkland War" is difficult to say - Britain will be exhausted but the colonists would have no support. They would have the wide open spaces of Louisianna to develop though.

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Truth. 1770 was about to go to war but both empires reached an agreement.. Spain returned Port Egmont and the British withdrew from the Falkland delivered to the Spaniards.
and in 1775-75 the american rebellion changed the British plans... A British-Spanish alliance would have changed the history. 1770 taught was possible a Spanish - British agreement...and I think an alliance...




Both empires had much to gain by fighting together the American rebellion .. and much to lose if the American rebels won.

It's a HUGE leap to go from a diplomatic agreement over a far flung colony to a globe spanning alliance! Particularly when Britain and Spain had been enemies since the year dot.

martin76 said:

You are right again.. Britain had finished French and Dutch Empires... and somehow, the Portuguese Empire was an ally ... just the Spanish empire showed its strength against the British assaults. But Spain was not a thread to British Empire...an alliance between both empires would have meant in practice the allocation of overseas territories between the two giants... and a very different world today...not better or worse but different.

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Spain tried that with Portugal and annexed her.

The reason why Britain's oldest alliance is with Portugal is that both countries feared Castille / Spain.

An attempt to preserve the overseas empires of Britain and Spain would fail - probably due to a Spanish revolution at some point in the early nineteenth century (absenting an Napoleonic War analogue) which would lead to Spanish and then British colonies revolting against European domination. I can't see Britian policing the Spanish Empire for Spain - and by this time Spain was too weak to defend it itself.

Derek Pullem said:

It's a HUGE leap to go from a diplomatic agreement over a far flung colony to a globe spanning alliance! Particularly when Britain and Spain had been enemies since the year dot..

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I know It is a huge leap.. but British tried...if the Bourbons had not been so blind... they had accepted the alliance...It was the best for both kingdoms.

Yes, you are right.. I know in XVI, XVII, XVIII centuries it was said.. There´s peace or war, between Spain and Britain always War! but Kingdoms are not people...no hate, no friendship .. just interests...With the Spanish alliance .. British had kept their American possessions to the Mississippi ...With the British alliance, Spanish had neutralized its biggest threat: USA.

An attempt to preserve the overseas empires of Britain and Spain would fail - probably due to a Spanish revolution at some point in the early nineteenth century (absenting an Napoleonic War analogue) which would lead to Spanish and then British colonies revolting against European domination. I can't see Britian policing the Spanish Empire for Spain - and by this time Spain was too weak to defend it itself.

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In this point I differ from you..Spain was the most peaceful country in Europe .. not a single rebellion since 1521...and that was a short rebellion. With the British-Spanisih victory over american rebels...not French intervention... Not French public debt... not example of successful rebellion.. no French Revolution.. no Napoleon... no Peninsular War.. not weakening of the Spanish Empire...
I think that.. by evolution. .the Spanish and British Dominions would be independent nowadays but with very different ... cultural, social and political parameters... there would be no American way of life... spain and Britain were the smbol of Nobility, Clergy, Aristocracy...It is because I think Florida would be as Nicaragua or Georgia as Jamaica...

Why do you think It would be an Anglo-Spanish alliance impossible? It was possible in 1808 against Napoleon and also it was possible in 1668 against Louis XIV... So It was possible in 1808 and 1668, also It would be possible in 1778.... Britain tried... And Charles III rejected... because he was blind with the Bourbon Family Pacts...

martin76 said:

In this point I differ from you..Spain was the most peaceful country in Europe .. not a single rebellion since 1521...and that was a short rebellion. With the British-Spanisih victory over american rebels...not French intervention... Not French public debt... not example of successful rebellion.. no French Revolution.. no Napoleon... no Peninsular War.. not weakening of the Spanish Empire...
I think that.. by evolution. .the Spanish and British Dominions would be independent nowadays but with very different ... cultural, social and political parameters... there would be no American way of life... spain and Britain were the smbol of Nobility, Clergy, Aristocracy...It is because I think Florida would be as Nicaragua or Georgia as Jamaica...

Why do you think It would be an Anglo-Spanish alliance impossible? It was possible in 1808 against Napoleon and also it was possible in 1668 against Louis XIV... So It was possible in 1808 and 1668, also It would be possible in 1778.... Britain tried... And Charles III rejected... because he was blind with the Bourbon Family Pacts...

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Spain was (had been for centuries) bankrupt. If France had not fallen to revolution, Spain was the next most likely.

As for no rebellion since 1521 the people of Catalonia would beg to differ. Also Portugal rebelled against Spanish rule. To say nothing of the Mapuche in Chile.

The alliance against Napoleon was brittle at best - a forced union of circumstance. 1668 was also a unique set of circumstances given that Spain never signed an alliance with England but was a co-beligerent (about as friendly as UK and USSR in WW2 - "enemy of my enemy is my friend")

Derek Pullem said:

Spain was (had been for centuries) bankrupt. If France had not fallen to revolution, Spain was the next most likely.

As for no rebellion since 1521 the people of Catalonia would beg to differ. Also Portugal rebelled against Spanish rule. To say nothing of the Mapuche in Chile.

The alliance against Napoleon was brittle at best - a forced union of circumstance. 1668 was also a unique set of circumstances given that Spain never signed an alliance with England but was a co-beligerent (about as friendly as UK and USSR in WW2 - "enemy of my enemy is my friend")

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Yes, It is true. spain always was under bankrupt and nothing ever happened. A revolution in Spain was impossible... Spain was a Catholic and traditional country ... a country (as Marx defined) enemy of the revolution. Catalonia was not a revolution but a counterrevolution.

You are right about 1668 and 1808.. but.. Why don´t you believe in a Spanish - British alliance in 1776? Why not. The American rebels had nothing to offer to Spain (except a bad example for their domains) ... instead the English alliance would be very beneficial to both empires: For Britain to quell the rebellion. For Spain: Gibraltar, Minorca and Florida.
So, Why do you think Spain would never have accepted the British alliance?

Becuase doing so would have put them on the opposite side as the French - they could not risk the war escalating. What if stymied against the British the French decided that "regime change" in Spain was a useful by product of the war.

Derek Pullem said:

Becuase doing so would have put them on the opposite side as the French - they could not risk the war escalating. What if stymied against the British the French decided that "regime change" in Spain was a useful by product of the war.

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Well, in that case, the American Rebellion would have become in a General War... and the Peninsular War would have begun in 1778 instead of 1808...
Honestly, France had no power to win a war with Spain and Britain if both countries were joined in a coalition.

martin76 said:

I think US could not have been born...

If Spain (Charles III) would have accepted the British (George III) alliance in 1776 (and It was possible a Spanish - British Alliance)... the history would be very different. France had never beaten the British-Spanish Fleets... and without the rule of the seas... France wouldn´t have sent troops to America...by contrast, the British from the North and East and the Spaniards from the West and South had "drowned" the american rebellion... with the naval rule.. the British hadn´t had difficulty carrying reinforcements, supplies and mercenaries to America

George III was ready to yield Gibraltar, Minorca and Florida... the Mississippi River had remained being the border between the Spanish and British dominions..

USA would have never existed ...today the Spanish Dominions (as California, Dakotas, Nevada, Oregon...) would be small countries almost uninhabited.. mostly indians and mestizos.. The British Dominions (New York, Indiana, Virginia, Carolinas...) would be little countries, with sparse population as Australia, Canada or New Zealand...

But Charles III rejected the Georgie´s proposition... and decided to join by the alliance with his French cousin (Louis XVI).

I think a Spanish-British alliance would be unbeatable in America in 1776.

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I read differently. Spain offered Britain to stay out of the war if Britain would return some former Spanish territories. It was Britain that refused and so Spain offered its services to France in exchange for making the capture of Gibraltar and Minorca a priority before going to help the American Rebels or capturing other British colonies.

History would definitely have been different if Britain accepted Spain's offer.

Matteo said:

The best Britain could have got from Spain was neutrality. Certainly not alliance.

There was the Bourbon family compact. And spanish interests conflicted English interests almost everywhere.

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The Bourbon family compact was nothing. Bourbon France either treated Bourbon Spain as a threat or as a junior partner. They wouldn't support Spain against Britain during the War of Jenkins's Ear. Spain returned the favour and wouldn't support France against Britain during the Seven Years War until it was too late. The two Bourbon powers even went to war against each other during the War of Quadruple Alliance.

martin76 said:

Well, in that case, the American Rebellion would have become in a General War... and the Peninsular War would have begun in 1778 instead of 1808...
Honestly, France had no power to win a war with Spain and Britain if both countries were joined in a coalition.

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No - it would take France a few months to reach Madrid as per Napoleon. At which point Spain withdraws from the alliance with Britain. At best Spain loses some of its gains (Gibraltar and/or Minorca) to France, at worst Charles IV gets installed as a French puppet

Britain has NO troops to spare at all. They were hiring Hessians to fight the Americans

Derek Pullem said:

Britain has NO troops to spare at all. They were hiring Hessians to fight the Americans

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Yeah but weren't they always using German mercenaries?
Weren't everybody, they were considered some of the best soldiers I believe.

PoeFacedKilla said:

Yeah but weren't they always using German mercenaries?
Weren't everybody, they were considered some of the best soldiers I believe.

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But when you have the undivided attention of Royalist France facing the feeble Spanish Army just how is Britain going to make a difference. If they need Hessians to fight the Americans, what is left to defend England and support the Spanish

France isn't going to occupy Spain - she is just going to make sure she doesn't interfere with their operations in the ARW and scoop up any freebies going (like Minorca)

Mike said:

I read differently. Spain offered Britain to stay out of the war if Britain would return some former Spanish territories. It was Britain that refused and so Spain offered its services to France in exchange for making the capture of Gibraltar and Minorca a priority before going to help the American Rebels or capturing other British colonies.

History would definitely have been different if Britain accepted Spain's offer.

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So we have read the same history but with different roles... personally think it is more realistic my version..Spain obtained Minorca and Florida and only Gibraltar remained in British hands... so I think London London knew what it would happen. However a British-Spanish alliance would have prevented that loss of resources and would have ensured the 13 colonies.