Groß-Deutschland map

JJohnson

Banned
Hi,
I would like to request a map of Groß-Deutschland, with the following states:
8780e3d3.png


But with the following additions:
*Luxembourg
*the East Prussia extended as it was in 1943 (without changing Posen's or West Prussia's borders)
*The Sudetenland annexed onto Bavaria, Saxony, Silesia, and the Austrian states Ober-Donau and Nieder-Donau (another map, map 3), so that German Bohemia goes to Saxony, German Moravia to Silesia
*Austrian States from 1866/1914 integrated into Germany: Vorarlberg, Tirol, Salzburg, Ober-Österreich, Nieder-Österreich, Kärnten, Steiermark, Krain (Carniola), Mähren, Böhmen, Austrian Silesa (joined to German Silesia), Slovenia

Many thanks in advance,

James
 
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Susano

Banned
ASB. You can't have post-1945 state borders with a POD somewhere in the 19th or even early 20th century... :rolleyes:

Err...? What?
Though using the borders of the FRG states is ASB. Theyre largely as they are because of the occupation zones, after all. Just look at the ridicolous artificialness thats NRW or R-P ;)
 
Err...? What?
Though using the borders of the FRG states is ASB. Theyre largely as they are because of the occupation zones, after all. Just look at the ridicolous artificialness thats NRW or R-P ;)

Well, sorry for expressing things a bit weird, but the whole occupation zones issue was my point. I mean, how can you have post-WWII borders of German states in a TL where WWII never happened? It's like having an EU (incl. EU flag) in Nazi-Victory-in-WWII-TL... :rolleyes:

I demand that the Rhineland is unified, Westphalia is separate, Bavaria has still Palatinate, Baden and Württemberg are separate states, etc. etc. etc. !!! :mad:

Just take a look at the Imperial and Weimar Germanies for reference:

596px-Deutsches_Reich1.svg.png


598px-DR1919-1937.svg.png
 

Susano

Banned
And that Hesse has Rhine Hesse (the area between incl. Mainz and Worms) and the west nassovian territories! One day, one day well take it all back from R-P!:mad:

;)
 
Imperial and Weimar Germanies piss me off because Prussia is so big. Unified Germany with 1815 borders all the way!
 

JJohnson

Banned
Ampersand, many thanks! That's exactly what I was asking :)

Now, I am not a perfect German history scholar, so I'm not 100% on how the federal states got their current boundaries, so please forgive my ignorance.

Taking the other comments into consideration, how about this for an arrangement of states:

*remove North-Rhine-Westphalia and Rheinland-Pfalz; replace the two with Rhein-Provinz and Westfalen in the same borders
*the state Hesse constitutes the two-part Hesse and Hesse-Nassau
*the non-contiguous portion of Bavaria - I'm not a big fan of leaving non-contiguous states, would it be Rheinprovinz' or Hesse's land? This POD could be the French invasion of WWI
*Lower Saxony remains as is; should it still be called Lower Saxony or stay Hanover?
*Thuringia could be a simple Prussian forcing of the simplification of the German lands, still giving the borders shown.
*Saxony-Anhalt likely should not exist as is. Would a Saxony and an Anhalt be more reasonable? With that, perhaps have Lower- and Middle-Saxony, and Anhalt?

Would this be more reasonable and less ASB?

James
 
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Ampersand, many thanks! That's exactly what I was asking :)

Now, I am not a perfect German history scholar, so I'm not 100% on how the federal states got their current boundaries, so please forgive my ignorance.

Taking the other comments into consideration, how about this for an arrangement of states:

*remove North-Rhine-Westphalia and Rheinland-Pfalz; replace the two with Rhein-Provinz and Westfalen in the same borders
*the state Hesse constitutes the two-part Hesse and Hesse-Nassau
*the non-contiguous portion of Bavaria - I'm not a big fan of leaving non-contiguous states, would it be Rheinprovinz' or Hesse's land? This POD could be the French invasion of WWI
*Lower Saxony remains as is; should it still be called Lower Saxony or stay Hanover?
*Thuringia could be a simple Prussian forcing of the simplification of the German lands, still giving the borders shown.
*Saxony-Anhalt likely should not exist as is. Would a Saxony and an Anhalt be more reasonable? With that, perhaps have Lower- and Middle-Saxony, and Anhalt?

Would this be more reasonable and less ASB?

James

How did this Germany come together? If it was through some sort of revolution, liberal or otherwise, you might be able to get away with a lot more integration of the smaller bits.

Westphalia and Rhine Province need to be seperate, yes. It's possible that administratively, a German state might have eventually decided to divide the (massive and highly populated) Rhine Province into a North Rhine and South Rhine (roughly) territory, the South Rhine including Rhenish Bavaria.

Lower Saxony would most likely be called Hannover, I think. I think forced Thuringian unification would be a prudent move- the tiny units were a serious detriment. Saxony-Anhalt conforms fairly well to the Prussian province of Saxony, and might very well exist in a slightly enlarged version called Saxony-Anhalt.

Just a few ideas/observations.
 

JJohnson

Banned
This Germany was the result of a timeline I created, wherein the net result gives Gross-Deutschland a better chance of survival. The 1848 Frankfurt Congress still fails, but not as badly, and gives a lingering Pan-German sentiment, due to some intervention by some American adventurers (I forgot the guy's name, but he's in Big Tex's ASB timeline). By 1866, the Prussians manage to defeat Austria, annex it with Luxembourg, Bohema, and Moravia, and set up a Hapsburg dynasty on the Hungarian throne.

In 1871, this Germany takes Alsace-Lorraine, humiliating France, but completing its union. The Prussian-Austrian German Union is complete, and the country spends the next thirty years consolidating and working internal improvements. By 1914, there is an overall feeling of "Germany" not "Austrian" or "Prussian." Bismarck was a competent politician, and Kaiser Wilhelm II was not breech-born, and did not need to overcompensate. Through intermarriage, the German royal family acheived a degree of stability and competence, making them excellent diplomats well into 2008.

This Germany does not ally with Russia, rather with the UK, Hungary, Italy, and the US. France, Poland, and Russia counter with their own alliance, setting the stage for WW1.

In WW1, France sought to get back at Germany for taking Alsace-Lorraine, and with the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand (this guy can never catch a break!) drawing in France against Germany, WW1 began. They swiftly took Rheinprovinz, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, but eventually got bogged down in trench warfare. After four years of fighting, President Teddy Roosevelt's heavy diplomacy, with Kaiser Frederick IV and the British monarch, the Allies defeated the Triple Entente powers. The Treaty of Versailles was heavily punitive on France, setting the stage for their entry into WW2. Germany demanded reparations, and land, but got only land and demilitarization of France.

In the runup to WW2, France began rearming in violation of Versailles, but no one did much to stop them. They re-annexed Alsace-Lorraine, and took Belgium. They began their own version of Blitzkrieg, taking Spain swiftly, then the Netherlands and Rheinprovinz, seeking a third Napoleonic Empire. It took a while, but the allies eventually defeated this revanchist France, but not before they, with their Polish allies, caused massive loss of life. Poland claimed everything to the Oder river, attempting to cleave Prussian Germany from the rest of the country. In the end, though, Germany was restored to its current borders, and all Polish-speakers were forcibly deported from Germany, mostly from Posen. Poland renounced all claims to any lands within Germany. France renounced its claim to Alsace-Lorraine, and all French speakers were deported from the land, which was elevated to a full Reichsland, just like the others.

Germany today, is a leading world economic power in science, technology, and diplomacy, on par with the United States of America and the Commonwealth of Nations (UK-led).

That's a very rough outline of this Germany. Basically, Germany gets a break from history, and France gets frakked. (putting it kindly).

*To Kaiser Kris or anyone else, for the Pflaz region and the Bavarian Enclave, would that be more logical to go to Saarland or Rheinprovinz?

Ampersand, if you wouldn't mind making a few changes on that map, I'd appreciate it! Perhaps a bit larger?

Thanks again!

James
 
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This Germany was the result of a timeline I created, wherein the net result gives Gross-Deutschland a better chance of survival. The 1848 Frankfurt Congress still fails, but not as badly, and gives a lingering Pan-German sentiment, due to some intervention by some American adventurers (I forgot the guy's name, but he's in Big Tex's ASB timeline). By 1866, the Prussians manage to defeat Austria, annex it with Luxembourg, Bohema, and Moravia, and set up a Hapsburg dynasty on the Hungarian throne.

In 1871, this Germany takes Alsace-Lorraine, humiliating France, but completing its union. The Prussian-Austrian German Union is complete, and the country spends the next thirty years consolidating and working internal improvements. By 1914, there is an overall feeling of "Germany" not "Austrian" or "Prussian." Bismarck was a competent politician, and Kaiser Wilhelm II was not breech-born, and did not need to overcompensate. Through intermarriage, the German royal family acheived a degree of stability and competence, making them excellent diplomats well into 2008.

This Germany does not ally with Russia, rather with the UK, Hungary, Italy, and the US. France, Poland, and Russia counter with their own alliance, setting the stage for WW1.

In WW1, France sought to get back at Germany for taking Alsace-Lorraine, and with the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand (this guy can never catch a break!) drawing in France against Germany, WW1 began. They swiftly took Rheinprovinz, Alsace-Lorraine, Luxembourg, but eventually got bogged down in trench warfare. After four years of fighting, President Teddy Roosevelt's heavy diplomacy, with Kaiser Frederick IV and the British monarch, the Allies defeated the Triple Entente powers. The Treaty of Versailles was heavily punitive on France, setting the stage for their entry into WW2. Germany demanded reparations, and land, but got only land and demilitarization of France.

In the runup to WW2, France began rearming in violation of Versailles, but no one did much to stop them. They re-annexed Alsace-Lorraine, and took Belgium. They began their own version of Blitzkrieg, taking Spain swiftly, then the Netherlands and Rheinprovinz, seeking a third Napoleonic Empire. It took a while, but the allies eventually defeated this revanchist France, but not before they, with their Polish allies, caused massive loss of life. Poland claimed everything to the Oder river, attempting to cleave Prussian Germany from the rest of the country. In the end, though, Germany was restored to its current borders, and all Polish-speakers were forcibly deported from Germany, mostly from Posen. Poland renounced all claims to any lands within Germany. France renounced its claim to Alsace-Lorraine, and all French speakers were deported from the land, which was elevated to a full Reichsland, just like the others.

Germany today, is a leading world economic power in science, technology, and diplomacy, on par with the United States of America and the Commonwealth of Nations (UK-led).

That's a very rough outline of this Germany. Basically, Germany gets a break from history, and France gets frakked. (putting it kindly).

*To Kaiser Kris or anyone else, for the Pflaz region and the Bavarian Enclave, would that be more logical to go to Saarland or Rheinprovinz?

Ampersand, if you wouldn't mind making a few changes on that map, I'd appreciate it! Perhaps a bit larger?

Thanks again!

James

I think it would make sense to see a Rhineland-Pfalz-ish province, with the Saarland, Pfalz region and the Bavarian Exclave. The North Rhine is certainly developed enough to merit federal status on its own, and united, the Rhineland is a wee bit 'super-state'-ish. Of course, if you want a German 'California', keep the Rhineland as one unit. :D
 
Ampersand, if you wouldn't mind making a few changes on that map, I'd appreciate it! Perhaps a bit larger?

I've took some liberties, and arranged the western povinces by Rhineland, Saarland-Palatinate, Westphalia, and expanded a bit Hesse, just to appease some moods here :D

german_provinces.png
 

JJohnson

Banned
Rhineland, Wesphalia, and Saarland-Palatinate, looks great :) I can see Hesse expanded...which areas were added to it?

Thanks again :)

...if you wanted to put Gross-Deutschland onto a map of Europe sometime....lol

James
 

JJohnson

Banned
Now, where's Trieste on that map? :rolleyes:

I was talking with General Zod on that, and he was postulating that Prussia would give that to Italy to help their unification, and for their aid against Austria in the 1866 war for unification.

James
 

General Zod

Banned
I was talking with General Zod on that, and he was postulating that Prussia would give that to Italy to help their unification, and for their aid against Austria in the 1866 war for unification.

James

Very true, although I fully expect that by the same bargain, linguistically-Italian Trento (although not necessarily linguistically-German South Tyrol) must necessarily go to Italy. In the maps above, Trento is German, which is very weird. Italy would never accept it. Please revise the map and place the Italian-German border at least where OTL border between the Provinces of Trentino and Alto Adige/Sudtirol lies.

Tirol-Suedtirol-Trentino.png
 
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