DBAHC: Qing holds onto China into the 20th Century?

The Black Turban Rebellion was unique for having two distinct natures, that of a traditional dynastic change, and that of a nationalist uprising. Liang Jinhai embodied both of these faces, of the old generalissimo turning against his lord, and of the Han nationalist philosopher capable of building a new China to stand against the west. As Prince of Cai, a title he garnered after, ironically, defeating a northern rebellion in 1810, he came under the influence of western advisors he invited to his court, and as commander of the Han banner army he adopted new drill and weaponry that helped to quash rebellion. When the Second Opium War broke out, his army performed well, far better than all other forces China could muster, but he was alone in a sea of incompetence, and China was defeated anyway. The Qing court, now facing peasant revolts, and seeing Liang as a potential threat, sent bannermen to depose him and disarm his forces, but he caught wind of the plot and fortified his position in central China. Becoming a powerful symbol of rebellion, peasants throughout central and south China flocked to his banner and acclaimed him emperor. Obliging, he declared the foundation of the Cai Dynasty and the Qing stood little chance against him.

The Manchu cause seemed hopeless as soon as the Han gained a semblance of national consciousness, and the very conservatism that legitimized their rule for as long as it lasted was what brought them down in the face of the west and modern ideas. Your challenge is to get the Manchu to control China into the 20th century.

Dorozhand said:

The Black Turban Rebellion was unique for having two distinct natures, that of a traditional dynastic change, and that of a nationalist uprising. Liang Jinhai embodied both of these faces, of the old generalissimo turning against his lord, and of the Han nationalist philosopher capable of building a new China to stand against the west. As Prince of Cai, a title he garnered after, ironically, defeating a northern rebellion in 1810, he came under the influence of western advisors he invited to his court, and as commander of the Han banner army he adopted new drill and weaponry that helped to quash rebellion. When the Second Opium War broke out, his army performed well, far better than all other forces China could muster, but he was alone in a sea of incompetence, and China was defeated anyway. The Qing court, now facing peasant revolts, and seeing Liang as a potential threat, sent bannermen to depose him and disarm his forces, but he caught wind of the plot and fortified his position in central China. Becoming a powerful symbol of rebellion, peasants throughout central and south China flocked to his banner and acclaimed him emperor. Obliging, he declared the foundation of the Cai Dynasty and the Qing stood little chance against him.

The Manchu cause seemed hopeless as soon as the Han gained a semblance of national consciousness, and the very conservatism that legitimized their rule for as long as it lasted was what brought them down in the face of the west and modern ideas. Your challenge is to get the Manchu to control China into the 20th century.

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OOC: Yay the Cai surname gets some love!

It's my middle name and my mother's surname, so...

I'm hoping you're talking about 蔡 and not 菜

ZhugeLiang said:

OOC: Yay the Cai surname gets some love!

It's my middle name and my mother's surname, so...

I'm hoping you're talking about 蔡 and not 菜

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OOC:Finally,someone that has a dynasty name that isn't as vulgar as Tieh
鐵.The traditional practice would be to name your dynasty after one of the Zhou dynasty states that you are either from,where you rose to prominence or formed your original title.Only the Ming and the barbarian dynasties ignored this.

ZhugeLiang said:

OOC: Yay the Cai surname gets some love!

It's my middle name and my mother's surname, so...

I'm hoping you're talking about 蔡 and not 菜

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OOC: Yep. Liang Jinhai, the Emperor Taizu of Cai, was given title and governorship over shangcai and environs after successfully fighting and crushing a peasant uprising in the upper Huai region. He thus named his dynasty after the Spring and Autumn state of Cai.

It would be practically impossible, sorry to say. Honestly, China is so much stronger than the puny Manchus that it's hard to imagine a situation where the Manchus AREN'T dependent on the Chinese like blood-sucking leeches.

The Qing were doomed to failure.

ZhugeLiang said:

It would be practically impossible, sorry to say. Honestly, China is so much stronger than the puny Manchus that it's hard to imagine a situation where the Manchus AREN'T dependent on the Chinese like blood-sucking leeches.

The Qing were doomed to failure.

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I wouldn't quite state it like this, but yes. The biggest weakness of the Qing was that they were both seen as culturally alien, tyrants due to enforcing their culture on the native Han, and were desperate to prevent these types of things from happening. This was why they made the majority of any army involving Han essentially fodder and militia, not that the Bannerman were much better due to the nepotism inherent in their military system and the hubris they had towards the Middle Kingdom being unassailable.

If it wasn't Taizu, it would have been someone else who did it, just at a later date. My best supposition could either be Hui or Hakka based rebellions, since both peoples quickly alligned with Taizu for a variety of reasons. The Hui were annoyed with the Qing due to a sense of persecution due to being Muslim (the Qing were stepping up persecution on non-chinese beliefs), as well as having the best cavalry for the Cai. The Hakka had great reasons as well. They were getting marginalized by newer immigrants to their areas, and were sick of being underrepresented and repressed over other Han ethnicities. It's no wonder that they would join, and it was for the better I would think. Their main rallying figure during the Black Turban Rebellion, Hong Xiuquan, would become a major administrative figure and bureaucratic reformer under Taizu.

If the Taizu Emperor was beaten, it'd probably either be Hong or one of the Hui leaders that would come to the forefront. Hui would have a better chance, considering Hong himself was more able as a grey eminance or administrator.

ZhugeLiang said:

It would be practically impossible, sorry to say. Honestly, China is so much stronger than the puny Manchus that it's hard to imagine a situation where the Manchus AREN'T dependent on the Chinese like blood-sucking leeches.

The Qing were doomed to failure.

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Yeah, it was only a matter of time before the Han Master Race took its rightful place as the masters of Eurasia! Now the Cai Dynasty has a sphere of influence that extends from the Australasian Kingdom to the Urals! Truly, the Han Master Race is blessed! Unfortunately, that traitor of an Emperor refuses to do away with that silly democracy, proving that he has lost the Mandate of Heaven. No matter; in time, the Sinocentric Party will lead the Master Race to new heights!
OOC: RPing as a Fascist is fun.

HIM Dogson said:

Yeah, it was only a matter of time before the Han Master Race took its rightful place as the masters of Eurasia! Now the Cai Dynasty has a sphere of influence that extends from the Australasian Kingdom to the Urals! Truly, the Han Master Race is blessed! Unfortunately, that traitor of an Emperor refuses to do away with that silly democracy, proving that he has lost the Mandate of Heaven. No matter; in time, the Sinocentric Party will lead the Master Race to new heights!
OOC: RPing as a Fascist is fun.

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So that's what they teach you lunatics in school. I don't think propagandists are allowed here on AltHist, it's about the same as someone from Germany claiming that the Führer Weber still has a sphere of influence from the Urals to France, even though the Nazi Reich lasted maybe 10 years after the end of the war before collapsing into the abyss -- the Columbians should've taken your empire apart when they had the chance, but nooo, we decided to make a white peace.

Honestly, if you want the Qing to survive, you probably need to kill the damn First Cai Emperor before he can start his rebellion; that, or make the Qing Dynasty's survival a matter of importance to Europe, remember, they did defeat the Cai in a few skirmish wars over trading rights during the 1840s, and the Cai did face the Heavenly Movement as well; it was just fortunate they survived and consolidated.

Sakura_F said:

So that's what they teach you lunatics in school. I don't think propagandists are allowed here on AltHist, it's about the same as someone from Germany claiming that the Führer Weber still has a sphere of influence from the Urals to France, even though the Nazi Reich lasted maybe 10 years after the end of the war before collapsing into the abyss -- the Columbians should've taken your empire apart when they had the chance, but nooo, we decided to make a white peace.

Honestly, if you want the Qing to survive, you probably need to kill the damn First Cai Emperor before he can start his rebellion; that, or make the Qing Dynasty's survival a matter of importance to Europe, remember, they did defeat the Cai in a few skirmish wars over trading rights during the 1840s, and the Cai did face the Heavenly Movement as well; it was just fortunate they survived and consolidated.

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No, that's not what they teach us in schools, they teach us propaganda about how we're all equal! I learned from this great guy named Da Veed Duk about how all westerners are inferior! The reason why the Nazis fell was because they were inferior Germans! The Master Race, the Han, have survived millennia and now we have taken our rightful place! All that needs to happen is for the Emperor to kill all the inferiors! I keep sending him letters telling him to do it, but he never does.

Ok going back on topic, the black rebellion had issues getting off at the start it could have been crushed early or during a round of bad luck. As for what this would mean for the chinese.

China would be bigger the black turban rebellion was fine with having the manchu's and mongolians up north where they could not do any damage. As for the emperiors themselves they were a massive step up from the Qing. The royal family was far more flexible then the Qing were and china would not have evolved into the modern consitutional monarchy it is today.

As for the Nazi's they are very lucky that the Russians decided to attack them first before they could go through with their plans to attack france, by the time that dust up was over they were too tired to expand the war and eventally collapsed. If they had gone with their initial plan?

Well with the french and british empires shutting off all trade it would have been the great war all over again.

I wonder how Uighurstan and Tibet would have done if the qing hadn't fallen.

MorningDew said:

I wonder how Uighurstan and Tibet would have done if the qing hadn't fallen.

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In Tibet's case? Better, Tibet is a theocratic nightmare world beautiful temples but the leadership is horrid.

MorningDew said:

I wonder how Uighurstan and Tibet would have done if the qing hadn't fallen.

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Well, the Uigurs would still have been under the rule of the Manchus, while here they are lucky enough to be ruled by the Master Race. The insurgency there is a pain, though, and that evil Islamic State dares to justify the rule of the Mandate of Heaven! Disgraceful, I say.

HIM Dogson said:

Well, the Uigurs would still have been under the rule of the Manchus, while here they are lucky enough to be ruled by the Master Race. The insurgency there is a pain, though, and that evil Islamic State dares to justify the rule of the Mandate of Heaven! Disgraceful, I say.

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(OOC: look at the previous post)

MorningDew said:

(OOC: look at the previous post)

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OOC: I did, don't see a problem. That post mentions Tibet, I mention Uigurstan.

HIM Dogson said:

OOC: I did, don't see a problem. That post mentions Tibet, I mention Uigurstan.

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OCC I see no contradictions Dogs Cool OCC

people give china issues over Uigurstan but lets face facts, do we really need another theocracy? I mean we saw how that went in tibet, Persia, and other middle eastern countries. I've had issues with dogson on a lot of things but the last thing the world needs is yet another theocracy stomping on human rights or sending out terrorists.

OOC: 100 years and you still have the National Socialist movement occur, in the same country no less. And nice job actually ignoring what I typed on both muslims AND Hong guys.

Honestly, while Manchuria is relatively stable ever since the Treaty of Harbin, the occupation of Uighuristan was not handled too well by the current leadership; yeah, they were a rogue state possibly developing bioweaponry, but the rather weak new government and the perception of it being a puppet radicalized the Muslims of the region about as poorly as those Hindu radicals that are currently mucking things up in the Raj of Punjab due to the preferential treatments Sikhs and Muslims get there.

All while Tibet can get away with mass murder and we ignore the ongoing Iranian Civil War.

A lot of people don't understand that the Lamaist radicals in Tibet and Burma don't represent all Buddhists. Buddhophobic violence is a huge problem here in the CSA and the whole west, but peaceful Buddhists who follow the true teachings of the Dhammapada exist all across Asia and the world. The Hongyuan Emperor in Great Cai sponsored a revival of Buddhist teaching in China at the turn of the century and many great new cultural works came out of that period (not even mentioning masterworks like the Book of Qing). Many westerners in their racism refuse to acknowledge that Buddhism has a history before the radicalization of the 70s and refuse also to acknowledge that the western powers were behind things like the Waziri Empire's invasion of Tibet.

You can try to save the Qing dynasty by first getti rid of the qipaos,changshans and the queues.The Hans hated them and replaced them with trqditional Hanfu once they were out of Qing rule.In fact,cutting you queue was the first thing people did in order to proof their loyalty to the new regime.

darthfanta said:

You can try to save the Qing dynasty by first getti rid of the qipaos,changshans and the queues.The Hans hated them and replaced them with trqditional Hanfu once they were out of Qing rule.In fact,cutting you queue was the first thing people did in order to proof their loyalty to the new regime.

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Please people got rid of the queue because its one of the ugliest hairstyles on earth proving your loyalty to the new regieme was just an added bonus.