AHC/WI: Stock Car Racing Continues with Generally Available Vehicles

Delta Force

Banned
In the 1960s and 1970s, manufacturers often went to extreme lengths to make a vehicle eligible for NASCAR. Ford almost produced a vehicle with a 483 cubic inch (7.9 L) engine before NASCAR limited vehicles to 427 cubic inch (7.0 L) engines starting in 1963, which led to the race for aerodynamic improvements and the creation of distinctive aero cars such as the Dodge Charger Daytona, Ford Torino Talladega, Mercury Cyclone Spoiler II, and the Plymouth Superbird. These vehicles were often difficult for dealers to sell due to their unusual styling, and NASCAR was concerned that engine and aerodynamic improvements were outpacing developments in tires and safety technology, creating dangerous conditions, so further restrictions were placed on vehicles starting in the 1970s. Two other factors worked to see the end of racing with generally available vehicles: R.J. Reynolds sponsoring NASCAR starting in 1972, bringing money to the sport, and the 1973 Energy Crisis.

Would it have been possible for stock car racing to have continued with generally available vehicles despite these changes and challenges?
 

Riain

Banned
Since Group A touring cars required homologation specials up until the late 80s, and rally cars still do then surely NASCAR can work something out.

Personally I'd say the NASCAR homologation rules were wrong since they homologated bodies separately to engines, so Daytonas and Superbirds were not all fitted with Hemis and the Boss 429 went into Mustangs rather than Talledagas and Cyclone Spoilers. Later on Ford was able to race Thunderbirds with 335 series engines because these engines were still in production in Australia in the early 80s.

However the bigger picture in the 70s will make the cars of the 60s impossible to repeat, the car makers are putting all of their efforts into making their cars compliant with pollution and safely legislation and producing fuel efficient cars for the energy crisis.

Perhaps the answer would be to homologate a car/engine combo produced in no less than say 5000 units, but allow more freedom to modify these vehicles than hitherto.
 
Being that NASCAR is truly unique as a form of motorsport and that the formula of cars NASCAR relied on by the 1980s was effectively dead or dying, the problem with continuing using street vehicles becomes how do you do that while still keeping the show? Most American cars by the mid-1980s were powered by V6 engines (which couldn't hope to make the power of the machines before them) and were front-wheel-drive unibodies usually powered by automatic transmissions. Such a car is totally unsuitable for big-league stock car racing, and while at the time it was the V8-powered rear-drive Ford Thunderbird and Chevrolet Monte Carlo in NASCAR, those cars would become like the others by the late 1980s.

One possibility I can see is the use of the bodies of the stock cars on custom-made chassis and a requirement to use the same engine as the road car. That would, however, require NASCAR to update themselves technologically as well, as the need to get NASCAR power levels out of V6 engines would require a lot of changes to how they operate.
 
other 'touring car' series use cars which are very much closer to their showroom floor brethren as does 'Group N' type rallying and even the old Group A rally cars ...
 

Riain

Banned
NASCAR doesn't have to make a decision about front engine unit bodies until the 80s at least. This gives them plenty of time to change the trajectory of their homologation to find themselves in a different position than otl.
 
NASCAR doesn't have to make a decision about front engine unit bodies until the 80s at least. This gives them plenty of time to change the trajectory of their homologation to find themselves in a different position than otl.

But NASCAR has always been very, very slow to adapt, and who even in the early 70s would guess that future Detroit cars would all be six-cylinder powered front-drivers? Being proactive doesn't work with NASCAR, so you need to look at ways around that. I can only see this working with the ability to use custom chassis.
 

NothingNow

Banned
But NASCAR has always been very, very slow to adapt, and who even in the early 70s would guess that future Detroit cars would all be six-cylinder powered front-drivers? Being proactive doesn't work with NASCAR, so you need to look at ways around that. I can only see this working with the ability to use custom chassis.

That, or just let them use actual modern engines and shit with relatively sane homologation rules, like say a minimum production run of 800 engine/chassis combinations (not necessarily in the same ECU tune, but mechanically identical) to be race ready.

Remember, Fuel Injection was banned until the 2012 season entirely because Bill France, Sr initially didn't want the '57 Chevy to utterly dominate competition, and then the decision just sort of stuck. (EDIT: Meanwhile, you can sure as hell bet that if Chevrolet had utterly dominated for a couple years like Hudson had previously, some other organization would have jammed a mechanical fuel injection system in, as AMC had previously been experimenting with while Bosch and Mercedes Benz were about ready to take the world by storm with the 300SL. So it'd probably only take till the 1961 season to have serious fuel injected competition.)

Sure, a more competitive and technophilic NASCAR might easily turn onto the insanity that was FIA Group B, or a slightly more practical version of Formula 1 in terms of the manufacturer arms race, but that's good for everyone except the brokest of privateer teams, and will really drive sales for manufacturers.
 
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That, or just let them use actual modern engines and shit with relatively sane homologation rules, like say a minimum production run of 800 engine/chassis combinations (not necessarily in the same ECU tune, but mechanically identical) to be race ready.

That's possible, but if it was pushed to the modern day, it still raises problems. Front wheel drive by its very nature is not ideal for weight distribution or high-performance driving unless the vehicle is very light, which no NASCAR stock car is, and with most unibodies, having rear wheel drive drivetrains on a car designed for front-drive means cutting the chassis, which compromises the floorpan's structural integrity. On top of that, what limits do you put on the homologation rules? American cars by the 1980s increasingly used V6 engines, do you allow those, and if so, how do you get them to have the 750+ horsepower that NASCAR engines by then had? IMSA and SCCA Trans-Am faced this problem around the same time thanks to Audi's awesome 200 Quattro Trans-Am car and the even madder 90 Quattro GTO of 1989 and 1990, to which Trans Am countered by banning forced induction and four wheel drive. Without forced induction or massive weight breaks, a NASCAR stock car running a V6 engine will be hopelessly off the pace. If you all turbocharging, do you limit boost levels? Do you use intake restrictors? No way NASCAR is gonna toss out V8 engines, and if they allow multivalve cylinder heads, both GM and Ford are rapidly gonna go for that. All of these changes without major improvements in NASCAR's technical staff (which struggled to handle the effects of the aero wars of the late 1960s and early 1970s as well as that of the mid-1980s), which in itself raises other questions.

Sure, a more competitive and technophilic NASCAR might easily turn onto the insanity that was FIA Group B, or a slightly more practical version of Formula 1 in terms of the manufacturer arms race, but that's good for everyone except the brokest of privateer teams, and will really drive sales for manufacturers.

Group B style madness in the 1980s with NASCAR is incredibly dangerous - Group B rallying killed several drivers, at least one co-driver and several fans in accidents, and the speeds NASCAR would get as a result would make it that much worse. The reason for restrictor plates at Talladega and Daytona was because of cars getting airborne. NASCAR played with fire on that one, now imagine them at the time with massive technological advancements and the cars that would result. A car in the stands at the Daytona 500 in the mid-1980s is at the very least the end of NASCAR, if not the end of American motorsports period.

I'm sorry, a technophilic NASCAR has to change absolutely everything about itself, starting with its two fastest tracks, which would be completely unsuitable for the sport as a result. The cars that went over 200 mph in 1969 and 1970 were pushing the limits of what was safe, and allowing fuel injection, followed by homologation specials to get around the problems that the car changes of the 1980s, would make NASCAR completely the opposite of what it is today. It would not be able to use Daytona or Talladega, and the advancements would make door-banging short tracks like Bristol, Martinsville, Richmond and North Wilkesboro unsuitable as well (these throughbreds would end up having teams and builders who don't want to bang them up or they could take real damage from it), as well as tighter fast tracks like Darlington. What's left? The existing big speedways, Pocono, Michigan, Atlanta and the like, sure, but the rest of the schedule? What of that? Road courses? At that point, aren't you really aping IMSA or Trans-Am, but with oval races? And if you are gonna go that route, wouldn't the manufacturers not want to build the compromises and simply go race in IMSA and Trans-Am, which were rather big in the 1980s?

I can't see NASCAR keeping up the generally available vehicles because of the nature of the game. V6-powered front-drivers won't work worth a crap on a big oval, homologation specials would be dangerous insanity in short order and NASCAR isn't gonna dump its biggest tracks for it. The best I can see is mandated car body shapes on custom chassis. The homologation special fight I'd say would be better suited to Trans-Am, IMSA GT or both.
 

Riain

Banned
Tell me if I'm way off the mark here, but Australia was homologating and building powerful v8 touring car race cars for decades?

If we can do it why can't the USA?
 

NothingNow

Banned
All of these changes without major improvements in NASCAR's technical staff (which struggled to handle the effects of the aero wars of the late 1960s and early 1970s as well as that of the mid-1980s), which in itself raises other questions.

Yes. It requires that they become competent enough to outfox Stanley Yates.

And it's not like you can't regulate the crap out of displacement, set rigorously enforced weight limits, and require minimum levels of safety equipment such as stabilizing aerodynamic devices.

Furthermore, it's not like the move by the American Automotive industry to transverse FF platforms is inevitable, or has to occur at all ITTL. Hell, even if it did occur for the majority of the vehicle range, there's still moving to pony cars and personal luxury vehicles which are gonna stay mostly FR no matter what, and can share platforms with other FR/F4 vehicles globally.
 
Tell me if I'm way off the mark here, but Australia was homologating and building powerful v8 touring car race cars for decades?

If we can do it why can't the USA?

Australia doesn't have an equivalent of CAFE and Gas Guzzler Tax, which (until recent advances in engine efficiency) combined to make powerful RWD V8 cars rather expensive for the general public. German and luxury Japanese brands get around this problem by being high prestige, which allows them to charge higher prices without losing too many sales. American manufacturers on the other hand, have had their prestige dragged through the gutter until recently by going after the cheap bling, wannabe rapper and retiree demographics instead of wealthy professionals, so they weren't able to profitably sell large RWD V8s unless they were style as 'trucks'.
 

Riain

Banned
So perhaps that's what can happen, Chev and Ford get out of NASCAR and Caddy and Lincoln get in. IIRC there was a magazine article about the fastest GM 4 doors in 1990 when the VN Group A came out, the European was the Lotus Vauxhall Carlton but the American was a Cadillac.
 

marathag

Banned
way to slow things would be to keep requiring an actual 'stock' chassis as well as 'stock' rims and tires.

Having 700HP isn't an great advantage when on skinny DOT approved radial tires.

Oh, and some real inspectors on looking for cheats.

I mean some teams were running nitrous on the sly, acid dipping, chopping, etc.etc. Waltrip, you know.

any cheat, -500 points, big fine. 3 cheats, driver banned for life, Sponsor get BIG fine
 
Tell me if I'm way off the mark here, but Australia was homologating and building powerful v8 touring car race cars for decades?

If we can do it why can't the USA?

You guys are road racing them, not ripping around 2.5-mile and 2.66-mile ovals where they run three cars wide all day. Most of the drivers loathe running at those tracks because it is very likely that you will get caught up in a massive accident which you had absolutely no part in making. The ATCC and the V8 Supercars that followed it were, and still are, real monsters that the drivers have to really push around, and most of the best of the Group 3A and Group A era cars were no different. That's true at NASCAR road races and some ovals, but the environments are very, very different.

So perhaps that's what can happen, Chev and Ford get out of NASCAR and Caddy and Lincoln get in. IIRC there was a magazine article about the fastest GM 4 doors in 1990 when the VN Group A came out, the European was the Lotus Vauxhall Carlton but the American was a Cadillac.

The last rear-driver Cadillac big sedan of the time was the DeVille, which went to FWD in 1985. The last rear-drivers of the era from GM were the G-Bodies, the last of which rolled off the line in January 1988. The Chevrolet Caprice remained, but that thing, like the Ford Crown Victoria (which at the time was even more dated mechanically) was a two-ton plus pig with a flexible chassis riding on leaf-spring rear suspension and with sloppy recirculating call steering. Most American big cars moved directly from the chassis little changed since the 1960s to the transverse front-drivers mentioned above. Sure, you could race the Camaro or the Mustang, but those are smaller and lighter cars again, their suspension isn't a whole lot better and their chassis and bodies combined with the engines of the time would see speeds get out of control quickly, plus that also goes against the ethos of "stock car" racing as NASCAR was at the time. As much as you would probably admit that many of the cars that ran in the Group A era in Australia weren't the last word in sophistication (the Ford Sierra RS500 in particular I know could be a real handful on full boost), they have the pieces of garbage Detroit made at the time covered by a couple orders of magnitude.

Yes. It requires that they become competent enough to outfox Stanley Yates.

Considering that staff has a hard time regulating the cars they have now, forgive me for having little faith in that ability.

And it's not like you can't regulate the crap out of displacement, set rigorously enforced weight limits, and require minimum levels of safety equipment such as stabilizing aerodynamic devices.

Stabilizing aerodynamic devices were not known to any real degree until the late 1980s, and that's too late for this. Yes, you can set displacement and weight limits and safety requirements (NASCAR already has these, and to their credit their safety is usually quite good), but the fact is that if you allow manufacturers go nuts on this by the mid-1980s the speeds WILL get insanely fast, and the playing with fire on this one could very easily backfire just as it did with Group B, but the consequences of a Bobby Allison moment where the car gets into the grandstands does not bear contemplation. The simple fact that NASCAR's kind of racing can only be done with the big, heavyweight cars, and keeping those cars on production chassis requires them not going to front wheel drive. The reason they went there was the CAFE laws, assembly costs and the fact that a hamfisted driver with a front-driver can more easily deal with the consequences of a driving mistake.

Furthermore, it's not like the move by the American Automotive industry to transverse FF platforms is inevitable, or has to occur at all ITTL. Hell, even if it did occur for the majority of the vehicle range, there's still moving to pony cars and personal luxury vehicles which are gonna stay mostly FR no matter what, and can share platforms with other FR/F4 vehicles globally.

I wouldn't call that FR not matter what. The Mustang was one angry fanbase away from being replaced by the front-drive V6-powered Ford Probe, the Camaro went away for a decade, even the big Cadillacs had gone to front-wheel-drive by the early 1990s. Ford can fight back with the Crown Victoria and Lincoln derivatives of it, but that's a fat pig of a car with ancient suspension design. It doesn't have to happen, sure, but save major changes in the way American automakers operate, it's going to happen in any case, and you'll be left with unsuitable cars. There is a reason American racing in general largely left behind production car-based racing in the 1970s, and it was because they simply became total garbage that had no business being raced by that time.

You might be able to have manufacturer warfare and homologation specials continue in IMSA and Trans Am where the road racing tracks they race on have generally lower average speeds, but not NASCAR. By the 1980s, it would be a disaster waiting to happen, and it would require either NASCAR letting the manufacturers much more leeway or the manufacturers keeping V8-powered rear-drive everyday vehicles. The first idea is against the ethos of the people who run the sport, the latter would be impossible because of CAFE. My point still stands, its either put the production bodies on custom chassis (which is what they did anyways until the mid-1990s) or don't bother.
 
way to slow things would be to keep requiring an actual 'stock' chassis as well as 'stock' rims and tires.

Having 700HP isn't an great advantage when on skinny DOT approved radial tires.

Considering most Detroit iron didn't get radial tires until the mid to late 1980s, I do not want to know what trying to race 700+ horsepower cars at 180+ mph on those bias-ply tires would do. The chassis wouldn't be able to take it either, you'd end up with them and the body on top (not unibodies, don't forget) buckling badly from the strain.

Oh, and some real inspectors on looking for cheats.

I mean some teams were running nitrous on the sly, acid dipping, chopping, etc.etc. Waltrip, you know.

any cheat, -500 points, big fine. 3 cheats, driver banned for life, Sponsor get BIG fine

Many of the elements of NASCAR's lore involve said cheaters, and a bunch of NASCAR guys to this day still follow the "If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin' hard enough" attitude. And all of the best of the time got busted cheating more than three times. You think NASCAR would ban Dale Earnhardt or Michael Waltrip or Bill Elliott for life? Not gonna happen.
 

Riain

Banned
You guys are road racing them, not ripping around 2.5-mile and 2.66-mile ovals where they run three cars wide all day. Most of the drivers loathe running at those tracks because it is very likely that you will get caught up in a massive accident which you had absolutely no part in making. The ATCC and the V8 Supercars that followed it were, and still are, real monsters that the drivers have to really push around, and most of the best of the Group 3A and Group A era cars were no different. That's true at NASCAR road races and some ovals, but the environments are very, very different...................

I know that the environments are different. My point is that it is possible to build unit-body, v8, rear-drive cars, and homologate a parts package that gives the raw materials to turn them into racing cars handling in excess of 550hp and reaching speeds in excess of 180mph.

Whether NASCAR regs can prompt such cars to built by US carmakers is another matter. However even if it doesn't NASCAR can demand car/engine combos up until the 80s, and then make a decision about a silhouette formula, it doesn't have to be decided in 19713
 
I know that the environments are different. My point is that it is possible to build unit-body, v8, rear-drive cars, and homologate a parts package that gives the raw materials to turn them into racing cars handling in excess of 550hp and reaching speeds in excess of 180mph.

Whether NASCAR regs can prompt such cars to built by US carmakers is another matter. However even if it doesn't NASCAR can demand car/engine combos up until the 80s, and then make a decision about a silhouette formula, it doesn't have to be decided in 19713

You're not wrong, but the thing is that the unibody cars you mention that are RWD didn't exist from Detroit until they started raiding their global divisions' parts bins in the 2000s. The GM G-Bodies and the big Cadillac and the Fox-platform Fords were all body-on-frame cars with ancient suspension design. Every Commodore from the 1978 original had better suspension than most Detroit land arks at the time. Detroit went from heavyweight ancient-design body-on-frame cars directly to the front-drive unibodies. There is nothing in between, nothing anything like the Australian Commodores.

NASCAR regs prompting Detroit to make such cars is a fantasy. This is Detroit in the 1970s and 1980s malaise, where they fell so far behind they had to parts-bin raid to catch up, and CAFE rules make the problem worse. The silhouette formula was an inevitable result of the energy crisis and the fact that while the race teams continued to need something better, Detroit didn't give it to them. Short of massively changing Detroit or NASCAR, the silhouette formula is inevitable, it's just a matter of when it arrives.
 

marathag

Banned
Detroit went from heavyweight ancient-design body-on-frame cars directly to the front-drive unibodies..

Eh?

Subframes?

You know Novas, Mustangs and Torinos

'60s Mustangs in SCCA were not known as being flexible, but stiffer than the body on frame cars of the era. The Camaros, also subframed, were not as tight.

too bad they mostly went back to body on frame by the early '70s.
 

Riain

Banned
In the mid 80s a number of successful Australian touring car racers were still using bolt-in, aluminium roll cages rather than welded, integrated steel roll cages. Dick Johnson says he wishes he had an integrated cage in his Group C cars for rigidity, but it took him time to learn these lessons.

Were NASCARs fitted with fully integrated roll cages in the 60s and early 70s? If not a simple rule change could open up the competition to cars otherwise thought to be not rigid enough.
 
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